How to combine modes??

[psenior]

Oh boy, did I stir up the hornet's nest or what? I didn't read all the above but whatever; I don't really take teh interwebs seriously.

Music is supposed to be fun. There's definitely more than one way to do things. I just tried to offer a solution to a problem instead of saying "No, it's not possible you can't do it."

If the original poster gives my suggestion a try and thinks it sounds terrible, then he shouldn't use it in his music.

If Debbie Downer don't like my posts she can put me on mute. I think she's really smart but I'll be ignoring her from here on out.

I am definitely not the person to teach correct use of modes. I never went to conservatory to study that ancient form of music.

[Sascha Franck]

I never went to conservatory to study that ancient form of music.

Sorry for the rather late reply, but modes (as used in todays music) aren't ancient at all.
In fact, if one wanted (and personally, I do), one could analyse almost all more or less "popular" (whatever that might mean...) using what might be known as the current reincarnation of the chord-scale-theory - which is pretty much based on modes (fwiw, for myself, on a theoretical/analytical there's not a single difference between a scale/mode or a chord at all). Please note that this analysis only contains the relationships between chords and scales, any compositional "rules" or whatsoever are not captured. Still, it's a brilliant toolbox to have and use. As an example, being merely a player myself (rather than a composer), I couldn't even imagine getting away without that knowledge anymore at all - show me whatever chord progression on a lead sheet (or wherever) and chances are great that I'd instantly know which chord to play in several ways, which option notes to use, which triads over bassnotes, etc etc. Absolutely invaluable for almost any of the jobs I play.

- Sascha

[Hink]

OT because I don't see Sascha enough...how's the baby dad?

[tapper mike]

I couldn't even imagine getting away without that knowledge anymore at all - show me whatever chord progression on a lead sheet (or wherever) and chances are great that I'd instantly know which chord to play in several ways, which option notes to use, which triads over bassnotes, etc etc. Absolutely invaluable for almost any of the jobs I play.

- Sascha

And that's the thing you instantly Knowand Can Play. Because you've studied through application. People somehow get the wrong idea that if you read it in a book it will magically transform there abilites. Or that because they can't understand what they are reading before playing they'll never get it by playing. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[jcrisman]

I already understand the thory of the modes..how depending of the chords it could imply a single or various modes.

but how do you combine them?

for example I have this song that goes

Emin then Bmin and I am using Edorian.. How will I proceed to another mode?

lets say I want to go to E phrygian.. I just build a progression of E prygian and jam using E prygian over those chords??

I hope it makes sense..

I'll return and explain as I'm getting ready to head to lunch, but I thought I'd post this as a clue (and also to give me a link back to this this thread).

------------------------------------------------------------
And finally how do you overdub a song??

I see people make complex sounding music with multiple different lines.. which if analyzed one by one they are infact not that complex..

rules for making multiple lines that sound good together??

lets take again E dorian

E - F# - G - A - B - C# - D

I build a i - v - i progression that goes

Emin - Bmin - Emin

-Now I for example just grab a bass synth and make whatever line I want using the notes within the scale?? Should I target a specific note?? Should I emphazise the "E" with the bass synth so it will have that dorain flavour???

Now time to make a lead-- just use again as I want the notes within the scale?

so.. I want to add more lines to fill the spectrum.. I grab a guitar.. just use the notes within the scale to jam?

°I cant seem to make anything sound good javascript:emoticon('')

I hope it makes sense


and finally thanks in advance any help is greatly apreciated

-

[felipescalador]

Already found a way to combine modes.. This is just an example.

It goes like this lets say we have done a F - C progression. When the chords are decomposed we have this

C: C-E-G
F: F-A-C

The harmony pulls toward C so we have to use some kind of C scale

This results in the following scale:
C ? E F G A ? (C)
1 ? 3 4 5 6 ? ( 8 )

we know modes are

Ionian 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

and our chords form 1 ? 3 4 5 6 ? ( 8 )

so we could use C ioian or C myxolydian.. or a mix of both.

Although this is for music less commercial and works best when the harmony is not that stictly defined

If it was for example Cmaj7 and F major - it will be in C major key and nothing to do more..


And to jump from mode to mode.. (modulation) one could use common chords to jump.

[felipescalador]

I never went to conservatory to study that ancient form of music.

Sorry for the rather late reply, but modes (as used in todays music) aren't ancient at all.
In fact, if one wanted (and personally, I do), one could analyse almost all more or less "popular" (whatever that might mean...) using what might be known as the current reincarnation of the chord-scale-theory - which is pretty much based on modes (fwiw, for myself, on a theoretical/analytical there's not a single difference between a scale/mode or a chord at all). Please note that this analysis only contains the relationships between chords and scales, any compositional "rules" or whatsoever are not captured. Still, it's a brilliant toolbox to have and use. As an example, being merely a player myself (rather than a composer), I couldn't even imagine getting away without that knowledge anymore at all - show me whatever chord progression on a lead sheet (or wherever) and chances are great that I'd instantly know which chord to play in several ways, which option notes to use, which triads over bassnotes, etc etc. Absolutely invaluable for almost any of the jobs I play.

- Sascha

I have seen this relation ship of modes and chords a lot. But as you say no aplication explained

how do you use it?

[Sascha Franck]

OT because I don't see Sascha enough...how's the baby dad?

Oh well...
He's not really a baby anymore. 14 months, running around, checking out things ("Arrrgh, NO, DON'T TOUCH THIS!!!"... you'll know what I'm talking about).
It's eating up all my time and power, too. As demanding as it could get. Etc etc.
But I couldn't be any happier at all, not even remotely!

Cheers
Sascha

[Sascha Franck]

Because you've studied through application. People somehow get the wrong idea that if you read it in a book it will magically transform there abilites. Or that because they can't understand what they are reading before playing they'll never get it by playing. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Well, to be honest: Yes and no.
While I absolutely agree that you *need* to check out things in real life (read: with an instrument in your hands), I also think that going through some things theoretically (or analytically) before you do so could possibly save you a lot of time. Knowledge is power here, really. And a massive time saviour.

Let me give you just one very simple example (which sort of derives out of the knowledge of whatever scale/chord approach): Let's assume have a C major triad. Very easy to play, even in all inversions, even in close position on a guitar (I'm a guitar player).
Now, with an A in the bass (and personally, most often I do play with bass players who establish the root note), a C major triad will also make up perfectly for an Amin7 chord. So: C major triad plus inversions practiced = 3 instant options to play an Amin7.
And it could go on.
C/D (again just a C maj triad with a D in the bass): A nice way to play a D7/9sus4.
C/F: A sort of "open" sounding Fmaj9.
C/Bb: A nice way to "describe" a lydian mode.
Etc etc.

Well, another example, this time a scalar thing: In each major (or natural minor) key we'll find 3 pentatonic scales (depending on what you prefer they can be major or their parallel minor pentatonics, in other words: C maj pent. equals A min pent.). In C maj we find A min, D min and E min pentatonic scales. Now, if we take the dorian mode inside C major, namely D dorian, we can obviously use the D min pentatonic. But as D dorian has almost no real "avoid note" (the B might be questionable occasionally, but at the same time it's the key note to describe the dorian mode...), we can as well just fool around with the other 2 pentatonic scales. This, obviously, is especially useful for guitar players as you can just move the same patterns around the fretboard.

Pretty much *exactly* the same things are working for modes. They're all the same, sort of at least, it's just a matter of how you establish them and what root key is "happening".

Bottomline: You practice one thing, learn about the theoretical background (and of course try to *understand* it) and use the thing learned on many different occasions.

For me, getting those aspects of music theory covered has been an absolutely invaluable time saviour, a source of inspiration and what not.

- Sascha

[Hink]

OT because I don't see Sascha enough...how's the baby dad?

Oh well...
He's not really a baby anymore. 14 months, running around, checking out things ("Arrrgh, NO, DON'T TOUCH THIS!!!"... you'll know what I'm talking about).
It's eating up all my time and power, too. As demanding as it could get. Etc etc.
But I couldn't be any happier at all, not even remotely!

Cheers
Sascha

and I couldn't be happier for you my friend

[jcrisman]

felipescalador wrote:
...

Sorry for my delayed reply.

I'll toss out a few ideas that I hope pertain to your questions and that may address your comments. Please consider or disregard to your choosing as the below merely represents my general musical approach.

1. Combining modes: While it's certainly acceptable to group chords together under a single mode/scale, one could also play the scales/modes on a chord for chord basis.

Using the mode-per-chord approach, I could then roughly organize the modes as being three major modes, three minor modes, and the Locrian mode.

Major modes: Ionian (The Major Scale); Lydian, and Mixolydian. All three usually will work when played over a major triad. That is, C Ionian, C Lydian, and C Mixolydian will each work if played over a C major triad. C Ionian and C Lydian will work on a CMaj7 chord whereas C Mixolydian would be best played over a C7.

Minor modes: Aeolian (Natural Minor scale), Dorian, and Phrygian. All three can be played over a minor chord, including minor 7th chord. That is, Amin or Am7 can accompany an Aeolian, Dorian, or Phrygian based melody.

(Or more succinctly: I tend to think of I, IV, or V modes for major chords, and i, iv, or v for minor chords.)

The Locrian mode is "limited" in comparison to the major and minor modes, unless you start delving into scales and modes outside of the Major Scale/Natural Minor framework. That is, the Locrian tonic triad is a diminshed traid, and the Locrian mode notes will contain the notes of the Major Scale a half step up (B Locrian "=" C Ionian, E Locrian "=" F Ionian, etc.).

Strictly speaking, C Ionian isn't synonymous with D Dorian, E Phrygian, and so forth as each mode evokes its individual flavor via chord changes and notes specific to its mode despite each mode containing the same group of notes. The walking music encyclopedias who inhabit this forum would be able to give you the nuts-and-bolts why this is of such nuances better than I can.

2. My approach to bass lines: I might sketch bass lines in the following manner:

a. Pedaling or droning the tonic.
b. Playing root, major or minor 3rd, fifth, and/or octave--either anchored as a "chord" or as a chord arpeggio.
c. A riff, usually centered around a scale, though I might include chromatic notes to make it more interesting.
d. I usually have bass notes more-or-less working with the kick drum as basses are considered part of the rhythm section in most popular music genres.

I say "sketch" because my initial bass line is frequently a sparse placeholder that conveys the general groove and chord changes while I fill in vocals and polyphonic instruments. I'm always free to tweak the bass line and pull back other instruments as desired. If I'm composing on a guitar or bass (as compared to entering notes onto a piano roll or staff), I tend to be busier with my bass lines.

3. Lead playing depends on what you are striving for. Some build their melodies based upon scales that work over particular chord progressions and/or based upon chord arpeggios--while others create a melody and then create chords that supports the melody. I suspect most musicians create melodies using both approaches to varying degrees. Phrasing is also an important thing to consider when creating a melodic lead.

Leads don't always have to be melodic. Alex Lifeson, Reeves Gabrels, and The Edge, and many punk rockers have made wonderful "leads" out of texture and anti-melodic noise.

4. "Filling in the spectrum": The sky can be the limit on this one. I tend to think of scales as being expressed vertically via chords, or horizontally via melody. Or conversely, melodies tend to be individual scale notes played in succession whereas a chord tends to be a group of scale notes played simultaneously. I try to consider where the melody notes are in relation to the chords notes and vice versa. For example, notes that are a half step from other notes will be more dissonant whereas unison notes and octaves will be most consonant. Dissonance isn't necessarily bad as it's often used to create tension.

Misc...

5. Fmaj to Cmaj doesn't necessarily have to pull to a C major scale. It can also be expressed as an F major scale. This may seem hair-splitting, but the overall feel can be different depending upon whether the melody is structured around the C or the F. One could consider Fmaj to Cmaj as either a IV-I or as a I-V chord progression. Or each chord could have it's own scale choice.

6. I wouldn't necessarily consider a Mixolydian-based song to be "less commercial." "Sweet Home Alabama" and "Norwegian Wood" come immediately to my mind. Also that dominant seventh note in the Mixolydian mode is usually a sweeter-sounding note on an overdriven guitar than the Major 7th, and the dominant 7th lends better to a bluesier feel whereas a Major 7th typically evokes a jazzier sound.

felipescalador wrote:
If it was for example Cmaj7 and F major - it will be in C major key and nothing to do more..

One could expand beyond C Major key if one treated the Cmaj7 and the Fmaj as two separate chords instead of as a couple. By separating the two chords into two individual chords, more options emerge. For example, C Ionian or C Lydian could be played over the Cmaj7 chord--and F Ionian, F Lydian, or F Mixolydian could be played over the F major triad. Should you play around with other scales, or with chromatic notes, your possibilities further expand.

Okay, enough of my verbosity. I hope I didn't totally waste your time.

[felipescalador]

felipescalador wrote:
...

Sorry for my delayed reply.

I'll toss out a few ideas that I hope pertain to your questions and that may address your comments. Please consider or disregard to your choosing as the below merely represents my general musical approach.

1. Combining modes: While it's certainly acceptable to group chords together under a single mode/scale, one could also play the scales/modes on a chord for chord basis.

Using the mode-per-chord approach, I could then roughly organize the modes as being three major modes, three minor modes, and the Locrian mode.

Major modes: Ionian (The Major Scale); Lydian, and Mixolydian. All three usually will work when played over a major triad. That is, C Ionian, C Lydian, and C Mixolydian will each work if played over a C major triad. C Ionian and C Lydian will work on a CMaj7 chord whereas C Mixolydian would be best played over a C7.

Minor modes: Aeolian (Natural Minor scale), Dorian, and Phrygian. All three can be played over a minor chord, including minor 7th chord. That is, Amin or Am7 can accompany an Aeolian, Dorian, or Phrygian based melody.

(Or more succinctly: I tend to think of I, IV, or V modes for major chords, and i, iv, or v for minor chords.)

The Locrian mode is "limited" in comparison to the major and minor modes, unless you start delving into scales and modes outside of the Major Scale/Natural Minor framework. That is, the Locrian tonic triad is a diminshed traid, and the Locrian mode notes will contain the notes of the Major Scale a half step up (B Locrian "=" C Ionian, E Locrian "=" F Ionian, etc.).

Strictly speaking, C Ionian isn't synonymous with D Dorian, E Phrygian, and so forth as each mode evokes its individual flavor via chord changes and notes specific to its mode despite each mode containing the same group of notes. The walking music encyclopedias who inhabit this forum would be able to give you the nuts-and-bolts why this is of such nuances better than I can.

2. My approach to bass lines: I might sketch bass lines in the following manner:

a. Pedaling or droning the tonic.
b. Playing root, major or minor 3rd, fifth, and/or octave--either anchored as a "chord" or as a chord arpeggio.
c. A riff, usually centered around a scale, though I might include chromatic notes to make it more interesting.
d. I usually have bass notes more-or-less working with the kick drum as basses are considered part of the rhythm section in most popular music genres.

I say "sketch" because my initial bass line is frequently a sparse placeholder that conveys the general groove and chord changes while I fill in vocals and polyphonic instruments. I'm always free to tweak the bass line and pull back other instruments as desired. If I'm composing on a guitar or bass (as compared to entering notes onto a piano roll or staff), I tend to be busier with my bass lines.

3. Lead playing depends on what you are striving for. Some build their melodies based upon scales that work over particular chord progressions and/or based upon chord arpeggios--while others create a melody and then create chords that supports the melody. I suspect most musicians create melodies using both approaches to varying degrees. Phrasing is also an important thing to consider when creating a melodic lead.

Leads don't always have to be melodic. Alex Lifeson, Reeves Gabrels, and The Edge, and many punk rockers have made wonderful "leads" out of texture and anti-melodic noise.

4. "Filling in the spectrum": The sky can be the limit on this one. I tend to think of scales as being expressed vertically via chords, or horizontally via melody. Or conversely, melodies tend to be individual scale notes played in succession whereas a chord tends to be a group of scale notes played simultaneously. I try to consider where the melody notes are in relation to the chords notes and vice versa. For example, notes that are a half step from other notes will be more dissonant whereas unison notes and octaves will be most consonant. Dissonance isn't necessarily bad as it's often used to create tension.

Misc...

5. Fmaj to Cmaj doesn't necessarily have to pull to a C major scale. It can also be expressed as an F major scale. This may seem hair-splitting, but the overall feel can be different depending upon whether the melody is structured around the C or the F. One could consider Fmaj to Cmaj as either a IV-I or as a I-V chord progression. Or each chord could have it's own scale choice.

6. I wouldn't necessarily consider a Mixolydian-based song to be "less commercial." "Sweet Home Alabama" and "Norwegian Wood" come immediately to my mind. Also that dominant seventh note in the Mixolydian mode is usually a sweeter-sounding note on an overdriven guitar than the Major 7th, and the dominant 7th lends better to a bluesier feel whereas a Major 7th typically evokes a jazzier sound.

felipescalador wrote:
If it was for example Cmaj7 and F major - it will be in C major key and nothing to do more..

One could expand beyond C Major key if one treated the Cmaj7 and the Fmaj as two separate chords instead of as a couple. By separating the two chords into two individual chords, more options emerge. For example, C Ionian or C Lydian could be played over the Cmaj7 chord--and F Ionian, F Lydian, or F Mixolydian could be played over the F major triad. Should you play around with other scales, or with chromatic notes, your possibilities further expand.

Okay, enough of my verbosity. I hope I didn't totally waste your time.

great post!!

Im reading it by small pieces to make sure I get everything!

[jancivil]

(I tend to think of I, IV, or V modes for major chords, and i, iv, or v for minor chords.)

The Locrian mode is "limited" in comparison to the major and minor modes, unless you start delving into scales and modes outside of the Major Scale/Natural Minor framework. That is, the Locrian tonic triad is a diminshed traid, and the Locrian mode notes will contain the notes of the Major Scale a half step up (B Locrian "=" C Ionian, E Locrian "=" F Ionian, etc.).

Strictly speaking, C Ionian isn't synonymous with D Dorian, E Phrygian, and so forth as each mode evokes its individual flavor via chord changes

NO. You have a theory in front of other theory as if the latter depends on the former, and it is irrelevant. OUt of that you are developing formala that is is just going to mislead someone. Each mode evokes its own flavor quite outside any chord laid over it. I IV and V would surely limit locrian, because they would be the wrong thing to apply to it! The whole conception is.

There is no apt comparison to be made, locrian vs major. There is no relevance in it.

EACH MODE HAS ITS OWN CHARACTER. As a mode. Chords should be used to accentuate that; it is fallacious to claim that chords give the mode its character.

to say "Locrian tonic triad", is useless. 'A diminished triad can't be a useful tonic triad in tonal music' is what you are pointing to. Sure, and it's irrelevant. The fact of that flat five is what sets it apart. That's the most noticable part of the character of the mode MELODICALLY.

Modal music IS NOT tonal music; it is not harmony-based. It's apparent that tonal music is your comfort zone; this doesn't affect what modes are. Your theory there is not useful.

[jancivil]

The chords you would put with a MODE should take into consideration the character tones of the mode.

listing seven triads for each tone of a mode is not really useful, because some of these harmonies will lead you away from the tonic as they want to function in a tonal way. This is to be avoided.

Locrian mode doesn't have a tonic triad that is very useful; I think that is something anyone with an understanding of tonal function can agree on. B Locrian/B diminished triad. That triad has a tendency to want to resolve - particularly for someone entrained to tonal music. so I'm addressing practically everyone that will read this.

Locrian is going to be the mode that's the most problematic to stick chords on top of, and in a set of changes perhaps the one that's going to fail to be itself the more obviously. That is not a limitation of it per se, through itself.

That problem in Locrian exists with any of the modes. IE: You should generally avoid a diminished triad playing modally. It wants to turn into the major function that you find correspondence with coincidentally. Per any of the white key modes, C major is looming when you hit B dim.

Now, you could find a ONE that includes that character tone and have a center, if you are versed in modal playing. A person used to V-I, vii-I, entrained by western music is not going to have much of an aptitude for it in the beginning. So it is problematic, but that problem reveals the problem with your chart formulating chords for modes as if it's an extension of major.

Major is coincident to, eg., Locrian,; as all seven modes that have the same tones are coincident.
There is no primary mode. You have given a theory based essentially in a premise: "major is primary and the others depend on it". That is a bad premise. That isn't how rows of tones came to be. Modes of seven tones have been around since ancient times. LONG before chords. Dorian, which was the Ancient Greeks Phrygian, was not based on what we take as Ionian. These had identities, and in the philosophy (Cf., Plato) had attributions of morality, and corresponded with tribes, names of tribes. Major is not primary. In European music history, you find that the so-called modes turned into the major/minor duality. Locrian was to be avoided as wicked. Western music as it came to be in the church obviated modality, tonality was established as the desirable way. Modality eventually made a comeback as musicians got bored and looked to the east. EG: Debussy. Modal music in jazz was all about getting away from the ii V I of popular music. Rock music that uses modes doesn't concern itself really with classical harmonic principles. Deflecting modes back to that isn't useful.

Another example: Dorian. EG: D Dorian. A typical thing, say in Latin music, is Dm to G in a vamp. The G contains the character tone, B natural; for a western musician the tone that distinguishes it from 'minor'. The Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression, you can really get into Dorian feel with that vamp. NOW; if you do a G7, G B D F, in that, you have to be careful. You have ii V7 in C major, don't you; ii V7>I. I'm not saying it's impossible but it's eomething to understand.

The chart that will be useful for people that want to get something out of modes, melodically, the point of using them, will find the character tones that make that mode desirable. All seven will not be useful, there will be chords that will tend to destroy the mode, as it obscures the gravity of its tonic.

EG: D Dorian; that G7, and that B diminished, have a gravitational attraction to C. C is not the tonic. C major and D Dorian are not the same guy.

[Ojd]

Some of you might know about chord-modes, right? Its THE missing link between chord and mode. You basically treat a sound as a sound (no matter horizontal i.e. stretched in time melody, or vertical i.e. at the same time as a part of a chord). What blocked me from understanding modes initally is that at EVERY MODE you MUST put some drones, i ussually do on tonic and fifth - this way you can really appreciate the difference between dorian and phrygian, that means D Dorian - play D E F G A B C D over D A interval, E Phrygian - play E F G A B C D E over E B interval. Now imagine that there's also E Dorian and 5 other modes - thats when the fun starts. When i was playing white keys over and over ("starting on different note(C)every youtube video on modes") it made no sense at all. But then i've found video where the guy loops chord before playing scale, and puzzle came together! Also George Russel Lydian Concept is interesting in regard to soloing and composing techniques.
I've made quite lot of stuff in past, some really abrasive noisy, no-music-at-all stuff, some melodic, with chord changes even (that for self-taught guy who started in pure "producer's electronic music" is achievment in itself!), but dig me now - it is all naive child's play until all pieces fit together - sound, composition, idea. New fresh idea that is. Oh and I would've add deep groove too - rhythms have their own science! Also rhythm is the relatively new thing to us, its been there before, but never so prominent and complex - todays music, even pop, is much more complex rhythmically than comparable pop songs of the past. So theres still stuff to be discovered!