In the same dominant chord a sustained 9 and a natural 9?

[Lander.vast]

Ok, so I have this doubt what scale should I use since in jazz school none of the modes they taught me has a #9 and a natural 9 at the same time in a dominant chord. In fact they taught me that could never happen, because the half tone between the two 9's creates a tension that even for a dominant becomes too unstable. So I guess my question is how the hell do we have a E7#9 with a natural 9 in the melody in the jazz standard Ballet from Real Jazz Book I. Plus in the next measure of the same song we have a D7#9 with a natural B in the melody so super locrian doesn't fit since it has the #9 but it doesn't have a natural 13 instead it has a b13????


If anybody can help me I would be much obliged.

[egbert]

I wondered if there is perhaps a key signature you may have overlooked so that the B natural in the second example is actually Bb. Just a thought - an easy mistake to make.

[DocAtlas]

Is the natural 9th just a quick passing tone, or is it being sustained for a while over the chord? You can pretty much play anything you want in the melody; whether or not it sounds 'good' or 'bad' depends a lot on the context, as well as personal taste.

Maybe if you could post an audio clip, or an image of the measure(s) in question, it would be easier to see what's going on in the piece.

In the case of the second example, maybe the combination of the b13 over the D7#9 is creating some sort of altered chord. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_chord

[Ogg Vorbis]

So, the way you're looking at it, you see a certain harmony and you decide what scale ought to be played over it?

Seems that this might be a basic framework, but followed blindly into the depths of hell out of principle might be too rigid.

Many of the scales in jazz are synthetic products of harmonic structures and/or melodic deviations. I would argue that the so-called blues "scale" is actually just an ordered list of notes based on a harmonic skeleton with characteristic applicable inflections or alterations.

In the cases like you are mentioning, I think it's healthy sometimes to take a step back and ask what melodic ideas and aspects are going to push an improvised phrase into and through the set of particular changes that are in front of you.

If you do a good job of creating a compelling phrase in your solo, some idiot at a university will order your notes into a list and call it the "landervast scale' and undergrads will have to memorize it for the final.

[Lander.vast]

I wondered if there is perhaps a key signature you may have overlooked so that the B natural in the second example is actually Bb. Just a thought - an easy mistake to make.

No no I checked that, the song is in Eb major but the measure has a "bequadro" I don't know how you call it in english, the thing that anules sustains and flats

[Lander.vast]

actually is not like I said, it is a E7#9 and the melody has a Gb wich is tha enarmonic for F# wich is the natural 9 of E

[Lander.vast]

So, the way you're looking at it, you see a certain harmony and you decide what scale ought to be played over it?

Seems that this might be a basic framework, but followed blindly into the depths of hell out of principle might be too rigid.

Many of the scales in jazz are synthetic products of harmonic structures and/or melodic deviations. I would argue that the so-called blues "scale" is actually just an ordered list of notes based on a harmonic skeleton with characteristic applicable inflections or alterations.

In the cases like you are mentioning, I think it's healthy sometimes to take a step back and ask what melodic ideas and aspects are going to push an improvised phrase into and through the set of particular changes that are in front of you.

If you do a good job of creating a compelling phrase in your solo, some idiot at a university will order your notes into a list and call it the "landervast scale' and undergrads will have to memorize it for the final.

lolololol I guess your right if I want to I can just make a mixolydian #9,Nat13 or Nat9. I had a harmony/improvisation teacher that told us any scale we invented would be as valid as any of the ones we learn in school

[Ogg Vorbis]

lolololol I guess your right if I want to I can just make a mixolydian #9,Nat13 or Nat9. I had a harmony/improvisation teacher that told us any scale we invented would be as valid as any of the ones we learn in school

Sure! So long as it makes MUSICAL sense. The phrase ought to drive the scale. When making love, it's not like we want to ask, "which page of the Kama Sutra shall I perform NEXT on this person? Hmm....."

[Lander.vast]

[jancivil]

Ok, so I have this doubt what scale should I use since in jazz school none of the modes they taught me has a #9 and a natural 9 at the same time in a dominant chord. In fact they taught me that could never happen, because the half tone between the two 9's creates a tension that even for a dominant becomes too unstable. So I guess my question is how the hell do we have a E7#9 with a natural 9 in the melody in the jazz standard Ballet from Real Jazz Book I. Plus in the next measure of the same song we have a D7#9 with a natural B in the melody so super locrian doesn't fit since it has the #9 but it doesn't have a natural 13 instead it has a b13????


If anybody can help me I would be much obliged.

allowing the (vertical) harmony to determine all your choices in a (horizontal) line isn't any kind of idea. If it was, you would have to utterly eschew running a chromatic scale.

Aa dogmatic approach for the horizontal based on what is feasible vertically isn't sensible, or feasible.
The melodic imperative is what should drive lines, not theory, not scales. scales should serve musical thought, not determine it. harmonies should serve the line, not determine it as though an essential thing in itself. Every heard someone humming a chord progression? thinking about scales in front of the musical idea is going to result in music that SOUNDS LIKE SCALES. Rather than melody. There are a lot of people whose 'improvisations' are comprised of shapes that are reliant on fingering patterns, out of a similar kind of ideation.


you could have that F# in the melody over the Fx #9 no worries, for all kinds of reasons, if it's a different color, different voicing making it a major seventh rather than a half step. It might be a bit harsh even if the pianist plays all three '9ths', but is it a law? No. It's a general principle. Don't look for problems as though out of violating dogma.


As for that F#, I see a Gb there... any thoughts as to why that is?

[Lander.vast]

Ok, so I have this doubt what scale should I use since in jazz school none of the modes they taught me has a #9 and a natural 9 at the same time in a dominant chord. In fact they taught me that could never happen, because the half tone between the two 9's creates a tension that even for a dominant becomes too unstable. So I guess my question is how the hell do we have a E7#9 with a natural 9 in the melody in the jazz standard Ballet from Real Jazz Book I. Plus in the next measure of the same song we have a D7#9 with a natural B in the melody so super locrian doesn't fit since it has the #9 but it doesn't have a natural 13 instead it has a b13????


If anybody can help me I would be much obliged.

allowing the (vertical) harmony to determine all your choices in a (horizontal) line isn't any kind of idea. If it was, you would have to utterly eschew running a chromatic scale.

Aa dogmatic approach for the horizontal based on what is feasible vertically isn't sensible, or feasible.
The melodic imperative is what should drive lines, not theory, not scales. scales should serve musical thought, not determine it. harmonies should serve the line, not determine it as though an essential thing in itself. Every heard someone humming a chord progression? thinking about scales in front of the musical idea is going to result in music that SOUNDS LIKE SCALES. Rather than melody. There are a lot of people whose 'improvisations' are comprised of shapes that are reliant on fingering patterns, out of a similar kind of ideation.


you could have that F# in the melody over the Fx #9 no worries, for all kinds of reasons, if it's a different color, different voicing making it a major seventh rather than a half step. It might be a bit harsh even if the pianist plays all three '9ths', but is it a law? No. It's a general principle. Don't look for problems as though out of violating dogma.


As for that F#, I see a Gb there... any thoughts as to why that is?

Well I don't follow music theory blindly, but if there's music theory I'd like to know the limits of it, and I guess when I asked the question I just wanted to know if there was some kind of explanation for the relation between harmony/chords and melody/scales since even if we don't want to think in terms of music theory the melody and the chords will still have some kind of a relation.
About the melody Gb over the E7#9 chord I don't know exactly why the composer didn't call it a F#, maibe because the whole thing is worked in Eb major and we wanted to keep working with flats, maibe because we wanted to call it the double flat 3 of E7....honestly, I don't have an idea.
But look man sometimes I also compose metal besides jazz and I guess to some extent I agree with you, many times with metal I prefer to compose using instinct rather then theory.

[jancivil]

I'm saying that I believe the melody came first and relates primarily to Eb.

My advice, learn theoretical principles to the degree of understanding their reasoning... and to internalize it. Then forget all about it.

I don't know what a whole lot of what I write is called, it would take some time to narrow things down, and it doesn't matter unless I had to teach it.

[jancivil]

If you do a good job of creating a compelling phrase in your solo, some idiot at a university will order your notes into a list and call it the "landervast scale' and undergrads will have to memorize it for the final.

that's right!

[jsaras]

It's just a melodic leading tone.

[Lander.vast]

It's just a melodic leading tone.

Like a passing note?? It's on the weak beat right??