KVR Audio

Lander.vast · Post by **Lander.vast** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:19 am

I was reading a book by bill dobbins, arranging and composing. In one chapter he says he can use the 3 of the chord and the 4 at the same time in a suspended 7 dominant chord. Wasn't that supose to clash, he says that normaly they teach it wrong in jazz schools when they say that the 4 comes in substitution of the 3.

Gamma-UT · Post by **Gamma-UT** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:39 am

I assume he doesn't mean voicing the chord as, taken literally, a 7sus4 doesn't have the third in it. It's a suspended chord because, in traditional classical harmony, you are generally waiting for the 4th to drop to the major third and that fourth has generally been carried over from a previous chord. If you regard the suspension as simply being a note that's carried over, the implication is that the 4th does not replace the 3rd. So, using the 3rd additionally for soloing etc does not "break the rules" of the suspended chord as such, although this might be frowned on in common-practice classical, which I guess is where the confusion comes from. I've seen people argue there is no such thing as a sus2 because it can't happen in common-practice classical - it seems a somewhat sterile argument.

However, with the third on a sus4 or 7sus4, there are the usual caveats of using both introducing a minor second interval, so it depends on how much dissonance you or the listener wants. Like everything else in music, context is everything.

Lander.vast · Post by **Lander.vast** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:12 am

But the guy says and shows in the tacet a chord built with 1, 4, 5, b7, 3(wich in this case is 10)

Gamma-UT · Post by **Gamma-UT** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:22 am

Lander.vast wrote:But the guy says and shows in the tacet a chord built with 1, 4, 5, b7, 3(wich in this case is 10)

That's lovely. But it's a 7sus4 (add 3) not a 7sus4.

Lander.vast · Post by **Lander.vast** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:26 am

Ahhh ok, thanks. It doesn't sound bad, I actually love this chord sound

geroyannis · Post by **geroyannis** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:12 pm

Lander.vast wrote:But the guy says and shows in the tacet a chord built with 1, 4, 5, b7, 3(wich in this case is 10)

And why isn't this just an 11 chord?

Gamma-UT · Post by **Gamma-UT** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:19 pm

geroyannis wrote:
Lander.vast wrote:But the guy says and shows in the tacet a chord built with 1, 4, 5, b7, 3(wich in this case is 10)
And why isn't this just an 11 chord?

That would be 1, 3, 5, b7, 9 (2), 11 (4).

In some contexts, the two might be interchangeable but there is a difference when it comes to composer's intention. The 7sus4 (add 3) specifies that there is a suspension that might be harmonically important. The 11 doesn't carry that implication and it does have the extra second/ninth which might affect how a performer chooses to voice the chord.

geroyannis · Post by **geroyannis** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:35 pm

Of course it depends on the context, I just assume it's a plain 11 chord because all the info we have from Lander.vast is a chord voiced with the 3rd on top, which would be prominent and really doesn't sound like a suspension is happening if you just play this voicing.

Also the 9th isn't necessary for an 11th chord, nor is the 11th necessary for a 13th chord. The 7th is adequate. At least that's what I've been taught at Berklee. You rarely hear a chord using 1,3,5,b7,9,11,13 and such a chord would be labelled 9,11,13 not just 13.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:42 pm

Gamma-UT wrote: I've seen people argue there is no such thing as a sus2 because it can't happen in common-practice classical - it seems a somewhat sterile argument. .

that would be a particularly ignorant position. Traditionally that is known as a bass suspension, resolving 2-3. It's well known.

anyway, if it sounds good it is good. Proscriptions according to this or that 'theory' asks a cart to pull the horse.

I personally would not call a chord with a tenth above a fourth an 11th chord. Jazz practice virtually never puts a natural 11th on a dominant type chord, anyway. Dominant wants that 3, and makes this chord more sensible than an 11th chord.

I would call this 7 add 4.

jsaras · Post by **jsaras** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:57 pm

There's a couple of things at play here. If the chord had a natural 11th at the top, you should not use the third underneath it because it creates a b9 interval which usually sounds like a horrible mistake in 98% of musical contexts.

Putting the 4th (11th) underneath the third alleviates this problem interval. This voicing can be thought of as a variation of a cluster voicing because the tones 1, 2 and 3 are present.

Lander.vast · Post by **Lander.vast** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:07 pm

jsaras wrote:There's a couple of things at play here. If the chord had a natural 11th at the top, you should not use the third underneath it because it creates a b9 interval which usually sounds like a horrible mistake in 98% of musical contexts.

Putting the 4th (11th) underneath the third alleviates this problem interval. This voicing can be thought of as a variation of a cluster voicing because the tones 1, 2 and 3 are present.

Ahhh thanks for you response...If I understood well the problem of having a third and a forth doesn't happen here because the half-tone problem between the 3 and 4 was inverted, instead of having a 2m we have a 7M in relation.

jsaras · Post by **jsaras** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:25 pm

One of the very few nearly immutable rules of tonal music is that the b9 interval (or outside octave dissonance) should be reserved for 7b9 chords. The b7 underneath the b9 softens the "rub", probably because it is a third away (one of the strongest intervals of the overtone series).

As you venture into total dissonance, the b9 interval is fine if it's separated by 2 octaves or more...because it's no longer a dissonance within an octave.

dandmkirkwood · Post by **dandmkirkwood** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:14 am

Playing chords with notes that are close together can be beautiful, it just depends how you use them. For a chord like this I wouldn't use it as a big part of the song as after a while it would just get annoying. But with the right. Progression you would have a totally awesome feel. The bottom line with unusual chords is creativity. If you really like the way it sounds and it doesn't bog down way the song resolves too much you could pull off an awesome sounding progression with a truly unique dynamic. I don't believe in rules of music that restrict experimentation and creativity, and even if someone else doesn't like what your your doing, if you like the way it sounds, that's all that matters. Good luck.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:01 am

jsaras wrote:There's a couple of things at play here. If the chord had a natural 11th at the top, you should not use the third underneath it because it creates a b9 interval which usually sounds like a horrible mistake in 98% of musical contexts.

Putting the 4th (11th) underneath the third alleviates this problem interval.

Actually this isn't that simple.

I think it isn't a beautiful sonority myself:
The problem is acoustically based; we want the #11 with that sonority: Fundamental (root), fifth partial (maj 3rd), seventh partial (b7), eleventh partial (#11). It resounds better, it's more natural. In context of a harmonic progression, the natch 11 over a major/min 7th is additionally problematic as it occludes the third of the chord (hence it's function), confuses it, while presenting that bit of clash 'b9' (from the 3rd). It's unwieldy. The #11 is supple.

Suspended with 3 and 4