KVR Audio

Timothee · Post by **Timothee** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:38 pm

I would like to open a discussion about a curious group of 4 notes that always takes me to a distant place of peace and harmony...those notes are G A B and C#... on a guitar they are the 4 spots on the E strings which have markers, other than the octave... I have alway been fascinated with the unique sound they can produce and wonder if anyone else has ever had experience with them as a group... I find they are best played in sequence back and forth such as G A B C# B A G... whenever I do this it opens a door in my mind to a mysterious musical place full of wonder and awe...I find that they elude being constrained to any musical mode and are some sort of tonal phenominon... I was also wondering if anyone knows why they are so special, if maybe its math at the basis or just plain beauty... please check these notes out on your local instument and tell me what you feel may be locked in their mysterious harmony...

G A B C# B A G repeat...

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:44 pm

I get that same feeling too. It's the partial whole tone scale. Moving up or down in whole tones is "floaty" because it doesn't resolve by half step anywhere. Debussy exploited the otherworldly presence of this many times.

ntom · Post by **ntom** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:53 pm

I am not a music theorist, but let's disect your choice of notes first.
Try changing the C# to a D and how does that change the mood?
Change the A to A# and B to a C?
Move the notes around and see how it affects this little melody. Which note seems to be a strong note, which sounds weak?

To me, the C# sounds weak.

Xanakis · Post by **Xanakis** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:31 pm

it is something that has been wondered about for many years. Richard Wagner used different keys in his operas to represent different element of his pieces (along with leimotifs). These elements were characters, characters moods, locations, etc. Many other composers have used the same technique. The well-tempered clavier had these element too. The tuning of the clavier(piano,harpsichord, etc) gave pieces different emotional feelings. The same piece played on two differently tuned claviers would give the same piece two different feelings.

I think that the C# does sound weak as well. But that is also because I think that when you hear the scale wise ascension of notes, when you reach the C# when the body normally expects to hear a C. Many people (even those who have never really studied music) would, if you sung the notes G then A then B, then asked them to sing the next note, would probably sing a C (or something close to it.)

The C# may be the weak note, but it is also what gives this its flavor. Does it still feel the same if you make the C# a C? How about changing it to D?

Timothee · Post by **Timothee** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:50 am

Well Ntom and Xanakis, I have pondered what you said about changing a few noted and what feels natural, but I'm not trying to make my note selection sound more natural...I am sort of aiming at the exact phrase I specified earlier and would like to hear more about that group of notes... I understand that the mind can naturally feel its way through a scale even to one unexperienced with music, but I am trying to dive into the feeling generated by purposely using the first four notes of a whole tone scale...why? you may ask....that is because when I encounter these notes I get a very specific and unique feeling inside me in which no other group of notes can create... I know that every group of notes can be unique and many different feelings can be generated, but I am interested in this one specific group in this case... since my original post however I have linked the relationship to a full whole tone scale(which logically makes sense) and also augmented chords in the same scale(aka whole tone chords)... I find these groups posess more vibrant energy in their relationships than in a normal scale with semitones, and I want to uncover the secret to exacty why I find them to be "more potent" than regular 7 note scales or pentatonic scales for that matter...in fact I find them to posess more musical power than any scale I've encountered including all the modes of contemporary music scales and also foreign scales of both 12 notes and 17 notes...Maybe its my personal preference, although I'm starting to think the mathematical theory behind tones is where my answer is to be found... After all, everything boils down to mathematic relationships

Nystul · Post by **Nystul** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:50 am

The whole tone scale is a pretty artificial construct in a sense. A lot of our harmony is based on the octave being roughly the second harmonic partial, and the fifth above the octave being roughly the third harmonic partial, and continues on along those lines. With whole tone you are chopping the octave into equal pieces, and you've already lost strong partials up and down in the perfect fifth and fourth. Instead you end up with tritones all over the place. So it is a strange and unnatural sound and it is a very useful effect for certain things. To me that is about as far as it goes... a useful cliche type effect for certain situations. I don't feel like it is very flexible as a foundation for composition.

Timothee · Post by **Timothee** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:44 pm

Alright guys thanks for all the comments...Its helped me get a better feel for the notes and how they should be used... I am starting to think that a whole tone scale can be used well with a few semitones added for flexability, although I am going to attempt to rarely rely on them for feeling, as I want the songs to posess a strong whole tone feeling, and perhaps I will try to channel towards augmented chords when I do to really capture their essence...
Thanks again for the support!!!, everyone had valid input to help me get my mind around them..

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:58 am

ntom wrote:
To me, the C# sounds weak.

so, you're entrained for a resolution. to me it's completely the strongest thing compared to G and obviously so.

Roman Empire · Post by **Roman Empire** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:49 pm

Timothee wrote:Alright guys thanks for all the comments...Its helped me get a better feel for the notes and how they should be used... I am starting to think that a whole tone scale can be used well with a few semitones added for flexability, although I am going to attempt to rarely rely on them for feeling, as I want the songs to posess a strong whole tone feeling, and perhaps I will try to channel towards augmented chords when I do to really capture their essence...
Thanks again for the support!!!, everyone had valid input to help me get my mind around them..

This is a Dorian scales first 4 notes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_mode

rtkeeling · Post by **rtkeeling** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:25 pm

Nystul wrote:So it is a strange and unnatural sound and it is a very useful effect for certain things.

I played the sequence on guitar and images of Gilligan getting hit on the head with coconuts came to mind.

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:42 pm

Effective use of whole tone harmonization at 00:13

And here at 0:07

Mysterious notes...