Harmor vs. Diversion

[Ingonator]

I reckon you have to have a keen interest in synthesis/sound design to even comprehend the possibilities of Harmor. Otherwise you'll just be judging the talent of the preset designers. I don't think sound designers are in any doubt as to the power of this beast

I am into sound design (and betatesting) for some time now and have used different synthesis types like subtractive, FM (e.g. NI FM8), additive (e.g. Alchemy + Cameleon 5000), wavetable scanning (e.g. PPG Wave 3.V), sampling, Granular synthesis (e.g. Alchemy, NI Absynth), Pulsar synthesis (Hamburg-Audio Nuklear) etc. but i still don't get what's so special about Harmor even after checking the demo.
What i really don't get is how the filter in Harmor works differntly compared to a normal subtractive approach (= additive OSCs + filter) like in Alchemy.

Normally i am quite fast in understanding new synths but in this case it's quite difficult. A manual could help which seems not to be included in the demo download which i got. The videos at YouTube don't really explain the new features IMO.
Even if Harmor should offer some new possibilities it does not look like an easier approach to the quite complex additive synthesis IMO. An easy approach would be the quite basic one in e.g. ImpOSCar 1 + 2.
Also setting the volume of the harmonics with a continuous curve instead of bars like in other synths does not really look easier to me.
The use of a drop down menu to switch the different envelopes or other displays is also not a really elegant way IMO.

UPDATE:
I just found the "Harmor.chm" file which seems to include a kind of manual. I was searching for a document file (doc or pdf) so i did not see this. Let's see if i understand more now...


Ingo

[adenozin]

Just my 2 cents :

I see everywhere that alchemy and other synths already offers image editing and other spectral goodness but while I am a huge fan of Camel's beast, Armor resynthesis is just way superior.

how so?

It just sounds great right out of the box. With alchemy I always had to fiddle with the root note, number of harmonics and filters to get a satisfying result and avoid the usual "FFT whistle" (sorry I can't really express this differently).

With harmor you just drop your sample and you're good to go, no whistle, just plain and perfect reproduction.

(btw im talking about about the additive resynthesis module of alchemy, the spectral mode always gave good results but lacks controls to mangle your sound easily)

But again I'm not taking away anything from Alchemy it's still a great sounding synth and I still love it. I'm just saying its additive resynthesis is inferior to harmor's

[kmonkey]

I reckon you have to have a keen interest in synthesis/sound design to even comprehend the possibilities of Harmor. Otherwise you'll just be judging the talent of the preset designers. I don't think sound designers are in any doubt as to the power of this beast

I am into sound design (and betatesting) for some time now and have used different synthesis types like subtractive, FM (e.g. NI FM8), additive (e.g. Alchemy + Cameleon 5000), wavetable scanning (e.g. PPG Wave 3.V), sampling, Granular synthesis (e.g. Alchemy, NI Absynth), Pulsar synthesis (Hamburg-Audio Nuklear) etc. but i still don't get what's so special about

Whatever...I think your problem is that you want total control but you fail to understand synth and because of that you are judging it as something ordinary. May i ask which one from your famous list can do what Harmor can?

I don't believe Harmor is created with your "kind" of people (with no disrespect intended i mean sound designers) in mind. I simply don't know how to express this in english. My bad and take apology for that. Again no hard feelings intended. For sure it is created for everyone but imo it is more like it is created with vast power of options under simple interface (interface is for debate for sure). I don't know it just happened that i am total idiot for creating presets "from scratch" like you can with your awesome synth list but with Harmor i am able to experiment and have ton of fun and at the same time i am able to create convincing Taiko drum or Pad from another space or i can take photo of my toilet and turn it in to usable Lead sound which was not heard ever before. Ton of fun. I am going to try how photo of my shi* is sounding you can count on that!

But you obviously have a point about missing or not clear manuals and videos. Gol already said in the beginning that this release was rushed. We'll see.

[Igro]

I reckon you have to have a keen interest in synthesis/sound design to even comprehend the possibilities of Harmor. Otherwise you'll just be judging the talent of the preset designers. I don't think sound designers are in any doubt as to the power of this beast

I am into sound design (and betatesting) for some time now and have used different synthesis types like subtractive, FM (e.g. NI FM8), additive (e.g. Alchemy + Cameleon 5000), wavetable scanning (e.g. PPG Wave 3.V), sampling, Granular synthesis (e.g. Alchemy, NI Absynth), Pulsar synthesis (Hamburg-Audio Nuklear) etc. but i still don't get what's so special about

Whatever...I think your problem is that you want total control but you fail to understand synth and because of that you are judging it as something ordinary.

exactly my thoughts as well. Gol already said, that no point to compare this synth with others. Just take the new approach.

[pdxindy]

Just my 2 cents :

I see everywhere that alchemy and other synths already offers image editing and other spectral goodness but while I am a huge fan of Camel's beast, Armor resynthesis is just way superior.

how so?

It just sounds great right out of the box. With alchemy I always had to fiddle with the root note, number of harmonics and filters to get a satisfying result and avoid the usual "FFT whistle" (sorry I can't really express this differently).

With harmor you just drop your sample and you're good to go, no whistle, just plain and perfect reproduction.

(btw im talking about about the additive resynthesis module of alchemy, the spectral mode always gave good results but lacks controls to mangle your sound easily)

But again I'm not taking away anything from Alchemy it's still a great sounding synth and I still love it. I'm just saying its additive resynthesis is inferior to harmor's

Please post an example of the resynthesis. There are no audio examples on the site with first the original wave file playing then the resynthesized version... I would like to see how accurate it is.

[tony tony chopper]

Please post an example of the resynthesis.

See the presets in the "Resynthesis" category.
(if some don't load, you will need the bugfix update released earlier today)
Or load your own samples to compare, it's pretty easy.

[tony tony chopper]

I am into sound design (and betatesting) for some time now and have used different synthesis types like subtractive, FM (e.g. NI FM8), additive (e.g. Alchemy + Cameleon 5000), wavetable scanning (e.g. PPG Wave 3.V), sampling, Granular synthesis (e.g. Alchemy, NI Absynth), Pulsar synthesis

The problem is that "additive" is a type of synthesis, not a type of synthesizER.

That is, additive synthesis achieves sound through manipulation of individual partials, but A LOT of them, hundreds. And hundreds of partials/oscillators changing over time, that's a huge load of data for the user, meaning that synths deal with this in pretty different ways, like
-a bulk of envelopes (I don't really like, because no one wants to edit 500 individual multipoint envelopes)
-an image (perfect, everyone can edit a 2D bitmap)
-specific bulk-processing units (in Harmor: prism, harmonizer, filters/phaser, etc) (perfect)
-something that looks like another type of synth (in this case, default controls that look familiar if you've used a subtractive synth). We had released Harmless earlier, it's purely additive inside, but it looks like a subtractive synth with no resynthesis, so which one is it?
-or totally different things, an additive synth could be used for specific instruments, Harmor's piano presets could be put in a piano plugin & it wouldn't be the worst out there.

Most VA synths are very similar, but you can't own one synth doing additive and "own additive synthesis".

What i really don't get is how the filter in Harmor works differntly compared to a normal subtractive approach (= additive OSCs + filter)

in that you can fully design your filter. The only way to achieve the same on an audio stream would be using a very large linear-phase FIR filter, meaning a very large latency, so it wouldn't be possible in a classic synth.

Harmor's filters are multipoint shapes that you can shift around & mangle using controls that look similar to the ones in sub synths. (but doing more. In which synth are you gonna find an automatable control of the filter's width? You will be selecting among the usual 6, 12, 18, 24dB slopes)

[pdxindy]

-or totally different things, an additive synth could be used for specific instruments, Harmor's piano presets could be put in a piano plugin & it wouldn't be the worst out there.

So let's hear the piano and some other instrument emulations. There was nothing like that in the audio demo.

[pdxindy]

-an image (perfect, everyone can edit a 2D bitmap)

I find editing image representations for audio to be quite clumsy... The editing tools in Alchemy for example are rather crude. I have never tried Metasynth, but other image based additive engines I have tried have all been clumsy too. I find other methods towards the same result faster and more reliable.

Can you meaningfully edit images within Harmor?

[rj0]

-an image (perfect, everyone can edit a 2D bitmap)

I find editing image representations for audio to be quite clumsy... The editing tools in Alchemy for example are rather crude. I have never tried Metasynth, but other image based additive engines I have tried have all been clumsy too. I find other methods towards the same result faster and more reliable.

Can you meaningfully edit images within Harmor?

I'm guessing Photoshop would be the way to go.

As for pianos, I recall seeing several in the demo presets. I was particularly impressed with the sound of those.

P.S. I remember seeing PhotoSounder being discussed at KVR. Specifically a visual editing interface for sounds.

[tony tony chopper]

I find other methods towards the same result faster and more reliable.

Come on, did you ever edit 500 multipoint envelopes? No human can or wants to do that. A 2D image is the best way to edit hundreds*hundreds of points. Of course you have to be willing to edit them, if not there are lots of other tools in Harmor to work on bulks of partials.

So let's hear the piano and some other instrument emulations. There was nothing like that in the audio demo.

There are 4 presets in the demo, also an old video here. I'm no piano expert so I won't pretend it's a real piano, but I'm pretty sure it's doable, for those who take the time, & I'm quite happy with how it responds to velocity. Some people even managed to make pretty realistic instruments in Sytrus over years, while I wouldn't have thought myself it was doable.

[rj0]

There are 4 presets in the demo, also an old video here. I'm no piano expert so I won't pretend it's a real piano, but I'm pretty sure it's doable, for those who take the time, & I'm quite happy with how it responds to velocity. Some people even managed to make pretty realistic instruments in Sytrus over years, while I wouldn't have thought myself it was doable.

Enjoyed the "Watery effects" video:



Is there an included preset that that was derived from?

[tony tony chopper]

Is there an included preset that that was derived from?

try FX - Ice rain

[aaastronomer]

Harmor shouldn't have a "sound", you get access to every single harmonic. (even though the included presets might have a sound)

the additive synths, i have, have a distinct 'sound' from the subtractive synths i have. or, i think more accurately, the subtractive synths can't generate the sounds the additive synths can (by the fact that you can't access single harmonics). however, every time i think i've found a sound in harmor that diversion can't reach, i find a patch that negates that conclusion. and around and around i go.

however, with imposcar 2 up next for testing, i must make a decision. harmor has the lead for now, but...

[Image-Line]

Please post an example of the resynthesis. There are no audio examples on the site with first the original wave file playing then the resynthesized version... I would like to see how accurate it is.

Here's the original...

http://flstudio.image-line.com/help/con ... old_on.mp3

and here's the resynthesis...



To load stereo samples.

1. Select the 'Templates > Resynthesis' patch
2. Drop a sample on Part A
3. Drop the same sample on part B (the ADV tab, 'side' switch, important to this method was selected by step 1.)
4. Optional - click the A/B link switch, so parts A & B can be scrubbed/played in sync.

Regards Scott