Yellow Jackets

[metalifuxx]

My friend bought a pair from Guitar C@nter and tried them in his Brunetti MC2 combo amp, which the amp's basic overdrive tone is already like a scooped sounding Marshall 800/900. He took them out in less than a week, and may of returned them. Although I think I recall him just keeping them and asking me if I wanted to try them in my Soldano. They gave the amp their character but he seemed to think it was choking/masking a lot of the amps overall power/tone. He seemed to think the Brunetti was not the right amp to use them with too. They are easy to pop in and out if you want another flavor, but they react in kind of a weird unnatural way. You get a nice attack and first on tone of the EL834 type amps, but the sound the decay/release of the note makes doesn't sound right. It's kind of hard to describe in words, until you try them with your amp(s). You really need to buy them from a store that will let you return them after trying them.

IMHO I would go with a pedal that gets you closer to the EL84 sound, or just save your money towards a cheaper EL84 amp. I would only get them if you want to really stray from your favorite tones and want to be experimental and adventurous with a new sonic palette. Like some guitar players that have and love their 20 different versions of boutique/DIY fuzz pedals, and have everyone of them hooked up on their board. If that makes any sense.

[Hink]

thanx metalifuxx but once again it's not about sounding like an el84, for me it's about a pentode/triode option and of course class A. Add that to reduction of power I'm hoping it will be a solution for my boogie under my present conditons. I made a mistake buying a 50 watt weber attenuator for my boogie, my next option is around 240 dollars for a weber rated high enough for my needs. I already use one 20 watt amp with my weber, the yellow jackets will drop the pwoer to 20 or lower (depending on whether it is pentode or triode).

Granted perceived volume between my boogie on half power (50 watts) and 20 watts wont be much, but 20 watts will not put the strain on my power tubes and attenuator as a higher rated attenuator would. Plus of course it will give me other options (pentode/triode and class A) and also it will work with my egnater if I like for even more varieties in tones. I could be way off but for the price I feel it's worth a shot and actually your post backs that up for me.

I agree about the pedal but I'm already doing that, instead though I am building my own.

Hockey 3 weeks

edit: btw for those who are not familiar with it the egnater rebel has two el84s in it and two 6v6's in it so I already have an excellent el84 amp

[susiwong]

My friend bought a pair from Guitar C@nter and tried them in his Brunetti MC2 combo amp, which the amp's basic overdrive tone is already like a scooped sounding Marshall 800/900. He took them out in less than a week, and may of returned them. Although I think I recall him just keeping them and asking me if I wanted to try them in my Soldano. They gave the amp their character but he seemed to think it was choking/masking a lot of the amps overall power/tone. He seemed to think the Brunetti was not the right amp to use them with too. They are easy to pop in and out if you want another flavor, but they react in kind of a weird unnatural way. You get a nice attack and first on tone of the EL834 type amps, but the sound the decay/release of the note makes doesn't sound right. It's kind of hard to describe in words, until you try them with your amp(s). You really need to buy them from a store that will let you return them after trying them.

IMHO I would go with a pedal that gets you closer to the EL84 sound, or just save your money towards a cheaper EL84 amp. I would only get them if you want to really stray from your favorite tones and want to be experimental and adventurous with a new sonic palette. Like some guitar players that have and love their 20 different versions of boutique/DIY fuzz pedals, and have everyone of them hooked up on their board. If that makes any sense.

Great description, fills in the gap on the higher gain side (Brunetti makes fine gear ) and I can relate perfectly to your findings.
One of the variables certainly is the output tranny (which is not in danger but works under different conditions than what it was designed for), probably other components too. On reviewing my own findings I guess you could make a point that they do a better job replacing 6V6s than replacing larger tubes, but don't quote me on that.
Also +1 on pedal OD, there are some great sounding options for that small amp vibe, Wampler, Mad Professor, or my own favourites Tim/Timmy and BJF Honey Bee to name a few.
They don't rely on power amp OD too much, so even with a 100W amp you don't necessarily need an attenuator. All this type of OD needs is a decent clean sound to work on, which separates them from the Klons, BBs or the TS mafia which are more at home in front of a loud crunchy amp ime.

Ymmv,
susiwong

[Hink]

FWIW only one person answered my original question and for the record I never asked how they sound. Don't take that wrong though because that is not negative and what is not said is often just as important. You did however give me some insight into what I was asking in that last post susiwong.

I'm sorry I cannot relate to the sound you like susiwong and I am even sorrier you are taking such offense to me calling you out on such things. The music you play is not what I play, the tone you like is not the tone I like...I'm not sure what the problem with this is.

In a pm to Eric a couple of days ago about whether he sold these he asked me about compatibility and if THD said anything about it, specifically about groove tubes because he said that a set of groove tubes died on him taking the amp with them.

My original question was "has anyone tried these", not "has anyone heard these" becuase my concern was not about tone (I'm and quite atypical in what I like for tone) but if they would harm my amp and besides Eric's PM I have not heard of them damaging amps. (though I did go with your bringing up tone susiwong you never answered my follow up questions)

So as for my what I was after for info during the last week looking into these I am reasonably sure they are safe. I actually found the tonebones first (at mojotone, but those were actually T-bones) and found this through a google which was the page where the dude had problems with them after 1.5-2 years (I would say 1 and 1/2 to 2 years but I was quoting him). It was his link that led me to THD Yellow Jackets and that is what sparked my interest more. (his page was actually very educating)

To address your point about the attenuator, you may be right...I dont know but what I do know is I love the boogie and it's tone (always have as you know), I cannot use the boogie here as it is because I mistakingly thought an attenuator rated for 50 watts would be suitable for an amp running at 50 watts. Do you remember susiwong when I first got the weber and complained about a high pitched sound I was getting? With or without the line out on the weber I get that sound and it's not the amp. The fact that I can turn the amp up as loud as I want without the weber and no such squeal (also no squeal if I use the second channel on the boogie with the weber bypassing one gain stage) plus there is no squeal with either the egnater or frenzel pretty much sums that up. (however the line out on the weber is not that big of a deal imho)

I was thinking about getting the Mass 150 from weber but the price is higher than I want to take as a roll of the dice. If you are right about not needing an attenuator I will be even more happy tbh, as it is trying to run the boogie at .2 on the master volume is pretty much a waste of time...kinda like buying a race car to drive it up and down my driveway

I have to still deal with life in an apartment for hopefully at least 4 more years, but if Yellow Jackets also give me different choices in tone that is a huge plus. I can get a set of YJs for 81 dollars which is not a gamble I do not mind taking

[susiwong]

I may be weird, but to me testing guitar gear is about tone and feel exclusively, in case of any doubts I doublecheck compatibility with my tech before plugging in.
So tone and feel is what I can comment on, from a subjective perspective, but believe me, I can tell a good amp from a mediocre one regardless of stylistic preferences, the criteria are amazingly similar ime.
metalifuxx and me probably don't share an identical taste in tone either, still his description of the YTs sounded like he was in the same room with us when we tested the 2204 - there are certain things not welcome in any style.

Why don't you simply put in a bias switch to accept 6V6s instead of these YJs if volume is your main concern ? You'll end up somewhere in Deluxe territory, around 20 to 25W ...
It will not sound the same as with the 6L6s, obviously, but probably more healthy than with the YJs.
My Heartbreaker has this feature, works fine, but I still prefer the 4x 6L6 setup. Still, many similarities in the poweramps.

Ymmv,
susiwong

And since your original question was :

I'm very curious as to what others may have to say, has anyone tried these?

, , agreed, a simple yes or no would've been more appropriate.
Afaics trimph1, metalifuxx and me all replied to the spirit of your question, presenting varying experiences, what more could you wish for ?

[Hink]

what more could you wish for ?

a two sided conversation on equeal ground with someone who can admit they are wrong and not change course time after time when someone challenges them? I was deeply offended by your calling my builds paint by number (and still am), you can't see how offensive that was. Then the yawn thing...give me a break dude, that was just as bad. You asked if I wanted you to say only what I wanted to hear but you being the type that is never wrong nets the same results...advice I must question because I cannot be sure where it's coming from.

I'm not perfect nor are you, I started this thread out in a very humble manner...I wish you could have continued that (I really wasn't even going to start it because I knew this would happen but another good friend convinced me to anyhow). Nothing was gained from this, I might be partly at fault for that but you are too. I can admit that but I know you cant..I would lock it but I still want to know if others have tried these and I do not ever want to lock a thread...I'm not even sure if you have because you posts contradict each other so I have heard your opinion and will weigh it against other opinions I get.

I wont get into how wrong you were about Class A amps because I'm done with those things as of now with you (I will just always say "yup, you're right" and move on), once again your friendship means more. Let's be friends and agree to disagree on gear because we will probably disagree a lot...please.

[susiwong]

No need commenting that, I won't reply on that level.
The thread speaks for itself.
Case closed,
susiwong

[metalifuxx]

I am not that technical with knowing about wattage/power/ohms, but I know the safe usage settings for my amp. As you can imagine my friend was a little worried when he was trying them and not knowing if he installed the tubes right and got them clicked in all the way, but his amp is completely fine. I am trying to remember if he bought the wrong ones for his amp at first, becuase I know I made at least 2 trips to GC with him regarding the Yellow Jacket tubes. The tubes did although give him such a drastic tone change, he thought something wasn't working right on his amp or if the amp might blow up. The amp and tone were fine, it's just it was not what he was exactly expecting. This is the same friend who eventually bought a class A EL84 Badcat Blackcat combo amp a few years ago. So his yearning for that Vox/Matchless sound did not cease until he bought an amp that does that sound perfectly.

Yes, Hink, I am geared up for hockey season, both watching and our team's Fall/Winter season starts this weekend. We had our annual team pub crawl last night. Although I am not sure how long into the season it will take to have some closure about the tragic events and deaths of hockey players that happened this summer. I am still in shock and disbelief. The Wings took a big loss with the plane crash.

[Hink]

it's the Fenzel that wet my appetitie for class A tbh, it's only two watts (now they say one on their website ) and really a pre-amp with the class a output option. I bought the ouput option not for the class A but for a queiter amp option but the difference is amazing. The egnater rebel has a power knob that gives you a range of 1-20 watts and an fx loop so I can compare the difference between the frenzel output and the egnater output. (with either EL84s or 6v6's)

Since I have done a lot of reading on this because my goal is to build a tube amp and I learned a lot about the difference between class A, B, A/B (and many more). What I hear that is different is the problem with crossover distortion is not present in class A as it is in B or A/B. For me this translates to cleaner distortion for lack of a better term, you having the soldano probably experience something similar because this is my experience with soldanos. The hi-gain is there and all the sustain but without the mud in between, if you're running it for clean tone I can see this being very moot but for hi-gain it's far more articulate imo.

The downside is that class requires more power to push higher volumes as it is less efficient, that results in higher power transformers and of course more heat issues. Fortunately for me that disadvantage is another plus for me because I would prefer less power to begin with. While I might love a Badcat I could live fine with the frenzel (I just want more amps ), I cannot justify the cost with other more important obligations in my life than what I want

susiwong mentioned putting a switch in instead and we have talked about this via pm, that is of course a great option and could be something I do in the future. But the YJs do the same thing as the switch and require no mods so having a pair of YJs hanging out means I can try it out before I commit to a mod that will require permanent changes. If I like it that will change a lot because I suspect my next amp will be the jet city 50 watt (6l6) and is suppose to be based on a soldano. The end result hopefully will be a great sounding amp without feeling guilty about the cost...there's a lot of things like this you have to compromise on when you have a 16 year old daughter.

I do want to get more use from my boogie and all the emails I have shared with THD suggest that YJs work very well with all fixed bias amps and they have had a lot of success with boogies in particular. The difference between the two types of YJs are one is for fixed bias only and the other can be used with either fixed or cathode bias, however with cathode you have to connect a ground wire to the screw that holds the tube socket in...I think I can handle that. So I will go with the latter because there is no promise the YJs will stay in the boogie and I might later want to use them with a cathode biased amp.

Besides more options is never a bad thing when there are no physical mods and no risk of damage ;


Hockey, the Bruins announced Savard is out for the season because of his 2nd concussion but I think he is done...at least I hope so. I dont want him to do any more damge, give him a coaching job Of course this frees up money from the cap but so far the Bruins have not made any major acquisitions. It wil lbe interesting to see if Thomas can have another year like last year, he's not that young so I'm not holding my breath (Tukka Rask is a good goalie too though). I cant wait for the opening day ceremonies having won the cup, that will be a fun day

The plane crash was tragic

[Hink]

here's a great pdf on yellow jackets and it also has some great info on tubes

http://www.yellowjacketstc.com/Product_ ... mation.pdf

[Hink]

I don't think I ever played a real Class A amp except for single ended designs, one of the most misunderstood and misused marketing terms with tube amps.
There are some pretty good articles on the web explaining the details, essential reading though admittedly a bit over my head to put to real world use, but one thing's for sure, neither are Voxes, Matchless, BadCat & Co true Class A nor an amp with those generic power reduction switches.
Never checked with a tech if the YJs are an exception, all I can tell you is how they sounded.

here's an interesting article the supports your position nicely

http://www.aikenamps.com/VoxAC30classA_2.html

now from the conversations I have had with THD and the pdf linked to above suggests that YJs are true class A and can also be configured for class AB. Whether that is true or even matters all that much remains to be seen though I'm not sure I'll ever really know (just like with the amps you mention).

Unfortunately you never answered my question about whether the yellow jackets you heard were pentode or triode, I assume if you knew the answer you would have answered. If we are going to talk about tone there is a huge difference, as is whether you use the right YJ for the amp. As it states in the above pdf if you if you have a cathode biased amp you need the yellow jackets with the ground wire (which can be left off using my boogie or other fixed bias amps). However this quote also answers many questions and adds more because if the ones you guys tried were not proper they would cause no danger but kill the sound.

What would happen if I didn't connect the ground wire in my cathode biased amp?

The amp would bias itself too cold to sound good, but no damage would occur. If you don't know how your
amp is biased (fixed or cathode), you can just try connecting and disconnecting the ground wire and listen for
which way sounds the best. (Connecting the ground wire in a fixed bias amp won't cause damage, either).

Again a question that was not answered but will be by me later. You can answer how they sounded but that is relative, as I said to somebody else it's like asking an I banez owner if an Ibanez is good for metal only to find out later they own an Ibanez acoustic.

The question whether or not they are true class A gets blurred here because some people claim that all YJs do is change fixed bias to cathode bias but the most common use seems to be with cathode biased amps...the very fact they have both options leads back to the same questions...pentode or triode and fixed or cathode biased? These truly make a difference and both questions went unanswered making any talk of how they sound just a shot in the dark at best.

Another question will be, will class A or class AB even factor into it or matter much...hype or not it is about the sound.

I ordered a pentode pair (YJC which works with both fixed and cathode biased) from the company that bought the rights to Yellow Jackets http://www.tubesandmore.com/ and as a plus they do come with JJ EL84s. (I ordered them free groud shipping from Arizona which is about as far from as you can get and still be in the lower 48 so it might take a week)

I have spent about 2-2 1/2 weeks researching these, I have learned a lot (including a thing or two I didn't want to learn) and I hope others can take some good knowledge from this and I hope once I get them I can pass on more for those who care to learn more.

BTW if I like them and I will try them in both a fixed and cathode biased amp (the boogie and the egnater) I will order the set for fixed bias and keep them in the boogie. MF has everything except the ones I ordered and I have a 35 dollar credit at MF (for three years now, I called to see if it's still there and it is) and then there is a damn good chance I get a 50 watt jet city for the cathode biased ones and keep the egnater 6v6/el84

[trimph1]

@Hink...

As a friend of mine always bugs me...."Do you have a warehouse for all these amps?"

[Hink]

susiwong is the one that needs a warehouse, I have three amps (going on 5)

[Hink]

they're here, above I said it would take a week...that's the same company I put in the sticky resource thread Antique Eletronic (link above too)...amazing that they are here already GREAT company





Took me longer to open the package then to install them (the ground wires are not needed on the boogie so they are taped to the back of th yjs until I get another set that do not have they ground wire above is the description of the two).

These are pentodes and not triodes, JJ tubes and the fact I said 'until I order a second set' says it all. Boogie+YJs+Weber minimass =

As you see I have the outer tubes pulled (the boogie had 4 6l6 Groove Tubes) and this configuration makes it 20 watts and suppose to be class A (thanx to susiwong's point about class A and the site I found whether they are or not is hard to prove but what it is called doesn't matter). I dimed the Boogie, never have I dimed either of my SOBs, no pedals, no gate (NS2 is what I use for a gate), the esp/ltd with EMGs, pre-amp and 18 volt.

Very quiet, rich harmonics, great overdrive and a rock and roll machine that can be used in my apartment. I cannot perceive a lack of headroom at all but then I think that sims have too much headroom so there could be a lack of headroom for others but for me it's more natural.

I have yet to try them in the egnater, I'll have to remove the top ventilation grate for them to fit (which does not bother me at all) because as you can see if my boogie still had a reverb tank it would be a problem. They do make shortys as well but because my gear never leaves the house I don't care about that.

No matter what the boogie is now a major part of my rig again, I will be getting a jet city 50 watt probably around the middle of next month (and probably not keep YJs in the egnater but put them in the jet city). One thing about the jet city is that even with the master around 2 it still sounds good (tried one at GC yesterday because I had an hour and a half to kill between dropping my wife off at work and getting my daughter at schoool and GC is 2 minutes from my daughter's school). I was very impressed and think even if I didn't like the YJs I still probably would have wanted the jet city (I like the 50 watt much better than the 20 watt)

I'm simply blown away at how little noise there is, I ran it through the second channel on the boogie first which only has one drive (channel 1 has cascaded drives) and thought "even if I have to run this on channel 2 it still sounds amazing"...then I plugged it into channel 1 and dimed the drives, started to bring the master up until 'hello, dimed'...but where's all the hiss? (there is still some of course but that's from the active guitar and will be gone when I run it through my NS2)...I cant wait to try it with my normal signal chain (not dimed obviously) using my TS clone I built.

I feel like a king right now, I have 3 killer amps two of which can now be configured many ways (remeber the egnater has both 6v6 and el84 tubes with a blend knob) and am just getting more amps. Life is sweet

Contrary to one post the EL84s are overdriving and overdriving nicely

[Hink]

okay, with the egnater it's interesting because I can have el84s and yj/el84s at the same time (and both are JJ's) which gives me the best A/B testing I could ask for. If the YJs were just for making any amp an EL84 amp then they would sound the same in the same amp right?

They don't, the YJs are much cleaner once again but like with the Frenzel (which is single ended Class A) all the gain and sustain is there but much less 'noise'. I am assuming the difference with both the Frenzel and the YJs is the lack of crossover distortion. Now I am wondering what the difference in crossover distortion is between class A, AB and B? Here's a good definition of the three taken from wiki

Class-A Output device(s) conduct through 360 degrees of input cycle (never switch off) - A single output device is possible.

Class-B Output devices conduct for 180 degrees (1/2 of input cycle) - for audio, two output devices in "push-pull" must be used (see Class-AB)

Class-AB Halfway (or partway) between the above two examples (181 to 200 degrees typical) - also requires push-pull operation for audio.

note othe sites I have read say AB is 270 degrees

There is no crossover distortion (as I understand it, correct me if I am wrong) in class A because it's a full cycle. Following that logic there would be less with AB than B but the difference is quite noticable to me and also the Frenzel line out into the power amp on the egnater with the yellow jackets only is pretty damn close to the tone of the Frenzel with the single two watt output tube. So are YJs class A or class AB that is closer to 270 degrees? I'll never know without a sillyscope

Also for s&g purposes I disconnected the ground wire when using the YJs in the egnater and the sound was not good (again the ground wire is only needed in cathode biased amps and the boogie is fixed bias so it was not connected in the boogie). If you guys tried the wrong YJs I could see you hating them right off, I cannot speak to triode operation and tbh I do not expect to buy a set of YJs for triode as I am getting exactly what I want now and the YJs are back in the boogie for now.

I'm sorry but these are no brainers imo, it's not a cheesy mod or a generic mod, it's not messing with the delicate balance of the amp, it's not a replacement for an EL84 amp...it's a whole other set of options that allow the player non permanent mods (not to mention a quick mod) and options for their amps with zero risk of damage...some may disagree but that is my feeling on Yellow Jackets, an essential set of tools to keep in the tool kit.