composition question

[Sendy]

I use music theory for correcting mistakes and patching weaknesses. For everything else I use Mastercard.

Mastercard in this case meaning, just show up at the 'page', apply yourself to the keyboard/instrument/tracker/interface/knobs/waveform editor and grope for stuff running whatever accumulated experience and instinct you've accumulated thus far in the background constantly.

Sometimes composing can feel like an aimless bunch of arbitrary decisions and misinterpretations of previous desires and ideas, until suddenly I realize and begin to hear what I was trying to create despite myself.

[wrench45us]

The inability to do that is just a sign that the drummer never took his training too far.

well I suppose, but at that time there wasn't much thought given to training per se -- and a whole lot of thought and energy given to learning to play the next song and expand the song list. The skill set was a side effect.

I was discussing this sort of thing with a guitarist friend of mine and even with a class he took in harmony and theory the primary focus for those early 'training' years was learning one song after another. I would suppose this is the case for a lot of amateur/informal musicians.

Which is why there are substantial gaps in training on an instrument and composition and harmony and theory. Music is so robust it manages to maintain its vitality despite these shortcomings (and the music industry).

[wrench45us]

the very same friend just sent me this article of using a litle technology to speed the learning process and make up for lost time

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14975165

[tapper mike]

The thing is,,, Technique is muscle memory not brain function,

[dandmkirkwood]

It seems I played drums from an early age and a lot oy years so my left hand was habituated to do accents and my right hand was trained on hihat or ride to keep a steady 8 or 16. I've come at piano a few times and as much as love it for the sound I'm never going to get my left hand to play a steady bottom. It just doesn't work that way

That is interesting. I think that you have learned a poor approach to playing drum set. Maybe we all do. Being able to switch lead from right to left hand any time you want would make a lot of patterns a lot easier to play. I can't think of another instrument where the most common way of learning results in crossed arms 95% of the time, especially when free arm movement is critical to the instrument. Drums and piano are similar in that each hand is capable of doing everything and really needs to be able to do everything. If you count a steady beat without moving your right hand, you can play one with your left.

I agree, I'm a guitarist but my second instrument choice is drums. Only because i learnt music primarily on guitar im a handicapped drummer because my right hand is so used to maintaining the majority of the rhythm. I can keep hi-hat tempo just fine, do quads, triplets, but i cant for the life of me do parradidles and the like. anything that requires the left hand to have as much coordination in rhythm as the right and left just wont cooperate. Drummers I know who are only drummers and nothing else had a great advantage over me for this reason. So it confuses me when you say drums are the reason your right hand and left hand wont work together.

[dandmkirkwood]

nobody I know ever received any instruction on playing a drum set. We all learned by watching everybody else. I would wonder if most current instruction would even introduce the idea of switching hand patterns.
Most of the percussionists I know who went onto conservatory level training didn't get anything on playing drum set, but did get some very strenuous work on snare that introduced hand independence and different time signatures per limb and generally moved onto mallet instruments.

Yeah, I learned percussion in grade school but applied to drum set on my own. I have no idea what they teach kids for lessons on set. If I were trying to teach someone, I'd want to build some foundation on snare drum before getting too far into drum set patterns. But I'm no pro. It seems to me that most everyone sticks with the same hand for typical hat or ride stuff. But then for a drum solo or fills the good drummers really can do whatever they need with either hand and keep it together. And the jazz guys will play hat with their foot if they want to do crazy solo.

I think mostly personal training with a drum tutor is the most common way peaple learn drum set. But to have a full skill in drumming one must learn all aspects of drums and percussion, embracing a wide variety of styles, Jazz, Eastern, African etc.

[tapper mike]

Here is where I would disagree with you. For the first few years on any instrument it's best to pick a style and lock yourself into it. It makes no sense to study styles you don't like/will never use. It makes more sense to study a specific genre one that you can gain cofidence in and use in daily life then if you want to branch out in a few years that's fine. But when you don't have a specific style to work with you can't lay a strong foundation.

[dandmkirkwood]

Sure, everyone has to start somewhere. But you might know that the best metal drummers are trained in classical styles. So are the guitarists, singers etc. Eg: dream theater, all trained musos. Another good example is early rock/ metal. The reason why those guys where so good was the training they had before they lunged Into rock. I'm not saying you HAVE to, but it helps. Copycatting bands that only play 4/4 rock beats will get you no where fast. I was a seriously average vocalist in my early years. Even though my style is rock, my vocals only took off when I trained in operatic technique. Don't get me wrong, I don't now sing rock with a voice like Pavarotti, I sing rock vocals, but aspects of classic training tought me correct breathing, palite resonance, projection etc. Etc. Don't limit people by discouraging them from training, it's bad advice, but don't push them into it either. And if they want to excel, don't limit any style with stereotypes, great music is always written by people who just love music, all styles ( Jeff Buckley, Faith no more, I could name others.) God speed all!

[wrench45us]

So it confuses me when you say drums are the reason your right hand and left hand wont work together.

they work together but only in certain ways
paradiddles were an early staple of what training I did have and cadences played for school marching band were a lot more sophisticated than what most people played -- a lot of syncopation and moving accents that requires a lot of right left thinking

but I can't play a steady figure in my left hand and some sort of melodic line in my right on keyboard. I can play a decent 'arranger's' or comping background as long as the left hand is limited to pretty simple beat one and ...
I think if anything it can be traced to a lack of formal training and wanting to get to a certain level without putting in the necessary foundation.
Let that be a lesson to you kids out there.

otoh, since I've realized that I won't be playing left hand keyboard parts, I've taken up bass and modern home recording technology allows me to imagine a day when it all comes together. And all that harmony and theory makes a very suitable foundation for learning bass. And my left and right hand work just fine together on a fretted instrument.

[tapper mike]

Sure, everyone has to start somewhere. But you might know that the best metal drummers are trained in classical styles. So are the guitarists, singers etc. Eg: dream theater, all trained musos. Another good example is early rock/ metal. The reason why those guys where so good was the training they had before they lunged Into rock. I'm not saying you HAVE to, but it helps. Copycatting bands that only play 4/4 rock beats will get you no where fast. I was a seriously average vocalist in my early years. Even though my style is rock, my vocals only took off when I trained in operatic technique. Don't get me wrong, I don't now sing rock with a voice like Pavarotti, I sing rock vocals, but aspects of classic training tought me correct breathing, palite resonance, projection etc. Etc. Don't limit people by discouraging them from training, it's bad advice, but don't push them into it either. And if they want to excel, don't limit any style with stereotypes, great music is always written by people who just love music, all styles ( Jeff Buckley, Faith no more, I could name others.) God speed all!

That's a leap.
Usually metal guitarists study the basics of the genre they are applying themselves to. After they gain a level of proficency at it then they expand to other styles.

Joe Satriani never went to school for classical training or classical theory. Even though he tells a great fabricated story about what he did in high school. Sure you can go in many different directions after the foundation is laid but you need the foundation laid first.

[tapper mike]

So it confuses me when you say drums are the reason your right hand and left hand wont work together.

they work together but only in certain ways
paradiddles were an early staple of what training I did have and cadences played for school marching band were a lot more sophisticated than what most people played -- a lot of syncopation and moving accents that requires a lot of right left thinking

but I can't play a steady figure in my left hand and some sort of melodic line in my right on keyboard.

I had that awhile for myself and still have it to the same degree depending on where the meolody starts in the measure. It's gotten easier but I still have challenges


I've found that slowing everything down really really slow to the point where it hurts and treating both hands as one really helps.

My big problem is kind of the opposite right now. I can play practically any rhythm figure with my right hand. not so fast with the left. but what's killing me is working them out together in a single simple rhythm where the left holds things down. The last few days I've been walking around the house tapping out a basic both left right shuffle pattern that is anything but on the money or natural to me. and while I can play a variety of triplets I can't pull off left left right to save my life.

[wrench45us]

Copycatting bands that only play 4/4 rock beats will get you no where fast.

what if one copycatted those classically trained musicians who evolved into metal artists?
the argument kind of falls apart.

IMO most people start out copycatting someone before they ever realize gee some training and 'classical' instruction might provide a real benefit.

an awful lot of guitar players spent their early 'training' trying to sound like somebody else.

I grew up when the British invasion was introdicing american youth to a lot of recast american blues. Those Chess/King/Stax/Volt records on British soil were little instruction audios. The serious guitar players I knew then all had their collections of those records and a few of the more acoustic-minded followed Rev Gary Davis around on the festival circuit. I don't think the Rev Gary Davis got much classical training, but the players I knew who followed him around got some training. They came back with some attitude. They didn't suffer anyone who couldn't pick up a song after it was played through twice. Not a lot of slack.

[tapper mike]

The Rev Gary Davis, That guy put more legends on the map then anyone. He was the hero to my hero's hero.I used to know these awesome blues players who worshiped Grossman, Bromberg and Jorma Kaukonen all students of the Rev.