Any ideas on how to make something with a hypnotic, melancholy atmosphere and complex rhythms and melodies? I'm not asking for ways to create atmosphere, rhythm or melody, but finding ways to make them work together. I love musicians like Burial, Gas, Aes Dana, Akira Yamaoka, Bohren & Der Club of Gore, and ESPECIALLY the soundtrack to Metroid Prime. I have no idea how Kenji Yamamoto makes these work:
However, I want to use melodies that are as advanced sounding and complex as these:
(At about 4:10)
(At about 5:10)
Any advice on how to make this work? How would I go about arranging something like this? I was think that maybe I should have a few main focal points, like in Minimal music, and have a ton of sonic subtleties. Any advice?
Note: I'm making deep, melancholy music, not dance music in case anyone got confused by the Ananda Shake videos.
Juggling ambience and melodies.
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- KVRAF
- 7837 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
you are mixing metaphors. Minimalist means minimal. You can't have a minimalist approach if you ton of sonic subtleties. a ton is not subtle. If you have a strong melody it will stand on it's own. Push everything away until you have a coherent melody that carries itself. There are two camps that fail with writing melody effectively. Those that are constantly meandering because they want to wander and can't lock a basic concept down and those that can't develop the basic motif to begine with or add variance thereafter. Usually they beat themselves down simply trying to master the motif to the point that the original flair is all but lost.
Sing your melody. If you cant sing a melody then it's not really a melody. Melodies are supposed to be memorable. If you can't sing it to remember it then how do you expect others to sing it in their head and remember it.
Sing your melody. If you cant sing a melody then it's not really a melody. Melodies are supposed to be memorable. If you can't sing it to remember it then how do you expect others to sing it in their head and remember it.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 136 posts since 1 Jun, 2009 from Colorado Springs, Colorado
I didn't mean Minimal, as in, it HAS to be only a few sounds, but that it would sound good if they were the only sounds playing. I use them as a focal point for the music so that people will focus on them. That way, the song will sound complete when they listen to it and will be enjoyable enough so that they will keep listening. Then, after repeat listens, they gradually notice subtleties in the song. I call it the Principle of Sonic Efflorescence. I'm probably not the first to theorize that, but I haven't heard anyone else talking about it or giving it a name, so that's why I named it.tapper mike wrote:you are mixing metaphors. Minimalist means minimal. You can't have a minimalist approach if you ton of sonic subtleties. a ton is not subtle. If you have a strong melody it will stand on it's own. Push everything away until you have a coherent melody that carries itself. There are two camps that fail with writing melody effectively. Those that are constantly meandering because they want to wander and can't lock a basic concept down and those that can't develop the basic motif to begine with or add variance thereafter. Usually they beat themselves down simply trying to master the motif to the point that the original flair is all but lost.
Sing your melody. If you cant sing a melody then it's not really a melody. Melodies are supposed to be memorable. If you can't sing it to remember it then how do you expect others to sing it in their head and remember it.
What I want to know is how do i get the melody to sound atmospheric while being nice and complex? How do I do it like it's done in the first two videos?
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- KVRAF
- 3878 posts since 28 Jun, 2009 from Wherever I lay my hat
Your question is phrased so broadly that I find it hard to answer. First off, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I don't think the examples you posted are particularly complex, so I don't know what you mean by "complexity". Complexity for me can exist on several levels: complex harmonies, a lot of co-existing, equally important parts playing at the same time, polyrhythms, a song with more parts than verse-chorus-bridge, using different scales in the same song, etc...
Second, you're also basically asking "what makes a compelling melody?" I don't think anyone can give a coherent answer to that. Tapper Mike's answer is as good as any - if you can't sing it, it ain't compelling. OTOH, not all music has to rely on simple melodies, although a tune without a memorable melody will likely not appeal to very many people. Sucks, but that's that. You could follow Captain Beefheart's advice: "Listen to the birds!"
Then, you're asking how to make complex rhythms and melodies work together. I can think of three approaches to this: music theory, experience, and trial and error. The first two are, for me at least, hugely important. The last can be fun for a while, but is usually frustrating and makes people give up too easily. There's no shortcut to learning your stuff, so if you want to get anywhere, you'll need to work at it.
I don't mean this to sound condescending, and I hope you'll take it as (I hope) good advice. It sounds like you're aiming for some good stuff, and want to take your music to the next level. That's great, but you won't get there without learning the basics - unless you're a genius, in which case you wouldn't be here asking these questions.
Second, you're also basically asking "what makes a compelling melody?" I don't think anyone can give a coherent answer to that. Tapper Mike's answer is as good as any - if you can't sing it, it ain't compelling. OTOH, not all music has to rely on simple melodies, although a tune without a memorable melody will likely not appeal to very many people. Sucks, but that's that. You could follow Captain Beefheart's advice: "Listen to the birds!"
Then, you're asking how to make complex rhythms and melodies work together. I can think of three approaches to this: music theory, experience, and trial and error. The first two are, for me at least, hugely important. The last can be fun for a while, but is usually frustrating and makes people give up too easily. There's no shortcut to learning your stuff, so if you want to get anywhere, you'll need to work at it.
I don't mean this to sound condescending, and I hope you'll take it as (I hope) good advice. It sounds like you're aiming for some good stuff, and want to take your music to the next level. That's great, but you won't get there without learning the basics - unless you're a genius, in which case you wouldn't be here asking these questions.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 136 posts since 1 Jun, 2009 from Colorado Springs, Colorado
I consider the Ananda Shake melodies complex because they're rather long, yet I can easily remember every note. I'm not asking about how I should write complex melodies; I already know how. And after studying and deducing how El-B, Portishead, Akira Yamaoka and many others create and utilize their drums, I have a fairly good understanding of how to write good rhythms that can tie in with the melody. I'm not trying to brag, I'm just trying to make you understand that I'm not asking how to write melodies or rhythms.
What I'm asking about is the arrangement. Arrangement is what's giving me a hard time. I can write melodies and rhythms that I consider to be complex and memorable, and I can create deep atmospheres, but I'm struggling to do both at the same time. In the past, I've tried to write tunes that had a deep, organic atmosphere with complex drums and melodies; I can make the drums and atmosphere work together, but the melodies always seem too out of place. Whenever I listen to the tunes in the first two videos, the composer somehow makes the melody feel organic and atmospheric, like you're listening to something in that atmosphere that's playing a melody for you. THAT is what I want; to make something that has a melody and rhythm culminating in an enjoyable atmosphere. If you want me to narrow it even further, then answer me this: If you were to attempt to make the music I was describing, how would you go about it?
You don't have to explain it to me in detail, just give me something to work with. I've already written 15 pages worth of songwriting theory in the past year, and I did all that from grasping the basics of what a musician is doing and deducing the rest from their music.
Again, I'm not trying to brag. I just want to get closer to my objective of making music that I can listen to for years and be proud of.
What I'm asking about is the arrangement. Arrangement is what's giving me a hard time. I can write melodies and rhythms that I consider to be complex and memorable, and I can create deep atmospheres, but I'm struggling to do both at the same time. In the past, I've tried to write tunes that had a deep, organic atmosphere with complex drums and melodies; I can make the drums and atmosphere work together, but the melodies always seem too out of place. Whenever I listen to the tunes in the first two videos, the composer somehow makes the melody feel organic and atmospheric, like you're listening to something in that atmosphere that's playing a melody for you. THAT is what I want; to make something that has a melody and rhythm culminating in an enjoyable atmosphere. If you want me to narrow it even further, then answer me this: If you were to attempt to make the music I was describing, how would you go about it?
You don't have to explain it to me in detail, just give me something to work with. I've already written 15 pages worth of songwriting theory in the past year, and I did all that from grasping the basics of what a musician is doing and deducing the rest from their music.
Again, I'm not trying to brag. I just want to get closer to my objective of making music that I can listen to for years and be proud of.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 136 posts since 1 Jun, 2009 from Colorado Springs, Colorado
Here, let me post another example:
At about 5:45 in the following tune, a melody starts up that really meshes with the rest of the tune. What should I take into consideration when composing and arranging a song and having that happen? I'll make the melody and rhythm work. All I need are a few tips on how to preserve the atmosphere that I've built up while using a melody. For instance, are there any techniques that you've employed or have heard of that would help with this? Do you have any tips on how to build up to that? Should I make the atmosphere first, or should I create the melody and build the tune around that?
At about 5:45 in the following tune, a melody starts up that really meshes with the rest of the tune. What should I take into consideration when composing and arranging a song and having that happen? I'll make the melody and rhythm work. All I need are a few tips on how to preserve the atmosphere that I've built up while using a melody. For instance, are there any techniques that you've employed or have heard of that would help with this? Do you have any tips on how to build up to that? Should I make the atmosphere first, or should I create the melody and build the tune around that?
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- KVRAF
- 3878 posts since 28 Jun, 2009 from Wherever I lay my hat
I'm still going to repeat my former answer: you need knowledge and experience. To answer the question: "how would I go about it?" - I "just do it". I don't need to fret the technicalities, because I've gotten to a point where it's an intuitive process. I don't need to think about which timbre clashes with what, or which melodies fit which scale... it comes naturally. "Naturally" meaning: I've spent huge amounts of time playing, improvising and composing, not to mention carefully (analytically) listening to other peoples' music.
It's like... anybody can cook something from a recipe. Okay - almost anybody, I know people who can ruin Macaroni and Cheese. But only an experienced chef can intuitively combine ingredients, spices and so on to make something great, something that's truly his own.
I wouldn't underestimate what you're trying to do: you're tying to fulfil the role of player (of all instruments), composer, performer, producer, sound technician, critic and appreciative audience. It's not easy.
We'd probably need to be making music in the same room, so I could get some immediate impression of what it is you're not satisfied with. The only practical suggestion I can think of at this point is: maybe you're trying too hard. It almost sounds like you've got a fixed idea in your head of what your tune should be like. It rarely, if ever, works for me, because it always breaks the flow. Maybe "all" you need to do is to let the music flow and not worry about what it's going to be like when you're done.
Can you post something of yours?
It's like... anybody can cook something from a recipe. Okay - almost anybody, I know people who can ruin Macaroni and Cheese. But only an experienced chef can intuitively combine ingredients, spices and so on to make something great, something that's truly his own.
I wouldn't underestimate what you're trying to do: you're tying to fulfil the role of player (of all instruments), composer, performer, producer, sound technician, critic and appreciative audience. It's not easy.
We'd probably need to be making music in the same room, so I could get some immediate impression of what it is you're not satisfied with. The only practical suggestion I can think of at this point is: maybe you're trying too hard. It almost sounds like you've got a fixed idea in your head of what your tune should be like. It rarely, if ever, works for me, because it always breaks the flow. Maybe "all" you need to do is to let the music flow and not worry about what it's going to be like when you're done.
Can you post something of yours?