Circle of Fifths -- a "recipe book" for chord progressions?

[lingyai]

Hi there, I hope you folks are used to naive questions...

I know next to nothing about theory. I know the names of notes on my keyboard and that chords contain, among other notes, the notes they are named after, and that's about it.

I can monkey around on the keyboard, playing things from chord diagrams, and sometimes those I randomly select for a progression sound quite nice in a sequence; other times, not at all.

Now, I've seen digrams of the "Circle of Fifths". I'm not sure exactly what it's all about, but I'm hoping that it can be used such that if, say, you decide to write something in a given key, it suggests which chords are going to sound good together in a progression. ...

If so, could someone be kind enough to walk me through a simple example?

If not, is there any other method of knowing which chords sit well together?
I know that I could try to just experiment and work it out by ear (although I know no theory, I can usually work out when something sounds wrong), but I'd like to be able to compose a bit more methodically...so any advice much apprciated!

[tapper mike]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=circle+of+fifths+wiki

http://tinyurl.com/42rthhr

[sjm]

You mean something like this?



http://mugglinw.ipower.com/chordmaps/chartmaps.htm

[satYatunes]

The above image is a very good point to start with. As you can see it's the map for C, so C major is your home chord. Start with C then you can jump to any chord in the map, then follow the arrow back to C. Try it out on your keyboard, you can find excellent chord progressions. There are similar maps on the above sites for all major keys.

[Jafo]

It's best to understand the theory, especially if you want to dress up progressions. The circle of fifths has strong, satisfying resolutions, which is why it's so common. But it's not the only way to do things. Another one you might like (and I myself prefer) is the reverse -- the circle of fourths: Bb - F - C - G - D, etc. It's the "Amen" cadence.

Don't be limited to theory; if it sounds good, it is good.

Happy journey!

[harry_B]

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I'm not smart at music theory like these guys, but one game I play on the keyboard is play a chord (3 notes) and then pick a new chord containing one of the previous 3 notes, and so on, and then try and go back to the starting chord. Which is I guess kind of how those charts work.

One thing to think about is music is based on frequencies (waves/vibrations). If the notes are in phase/sync/resonance/tune then it sounds good. Your ear and your brain knows how to figure that out automatically. It knows what are the obvious notes/chords that should follow what you just played, that's why you can tell if it 'sounds good' or 'works'. One way to write really interesting music is to find a chord that isn't an obvious progression, but still 'works'. That's like a plot twist in a movie that you didn't see coming and it activates your brain in ways/paths it doesn't normally/obviously work.

If you like reading here's a link to some free chapters from a book that is good at explaining all this kind of stuff - although I'll pass on the evolutionary diatribe at the start, the rest of the chapters help you understand music from the ground up:
http://www.howmusicreallyworks.com (http://www.howmusicreallyworks.com)

Hope that helps

[lingyai]

I'm not smart at music theory like these guys, but one game I play on the keyboard is play a chord (3 notes) and then pick a new chord containing one of the previous 3 notes, and so on, and then try and go back to the starting chord. Which is I guess kind of how those charts work.

One thing to think about is music is based on frequencies (waves/vibrations). If the notes are in phase/sync/resonance/tune then it sounds good. Your ear and your brain knows how to figure that out automatically. It knows what are the obvious notes/chords that should follow what you just played, that's why you can tell if it 'sounds good' or 'works'. One way to write really interesting music is to find a chord that isn't an obvious progression, but still 'works'. That's like a plot twist in a movie that you didn't see coming and it activates your brain in ways/paths it doesn't normally/obviously work.

If you like reading here's a link to some free chapters from a book that is good at explaining all this kind of stuff - although I'll pass on the evolutionary diatribe at the start, the rest of the chapters help you understand music from the ground up:
http://www.howmusicreallyworks.com

Hope that helps

Good tips, and the book adevrtised on that site looks interesting, but... 890 pages, whew... that's quite a time investment. Have you gone through it all yourself? If so, how useful do you tink it would be, for someone with no background in theory, to both grasp, and put to use in song creation?

[lingyai]

You mean something like this?



http://mugglinw.ipower.com/chordmaps/chartmaps.htm

Whoa... that's kind of revolutionary... (Thanks, satYatunes for the explanation, am not sure I would have gotten that at first)

I visited the the site (thanks for the link, sjm) and what's even more exciting is the software he sells... looks like the perfect tool for someone like me, who has a good ear but no theoretical knowledge and has poor keyboard skills, to be able to hear progressions without having to struggle with chord charts and crawl my way along the keyboard -- being able to play the chords with a mouseclick is awesome. This looks like not only a great educational tool, but, it seems, an instantly usable composing tool too!

Have either of you used the software? Is my excitement misplaced? As it stands I'm pretty sure to order it.

Thanks again, both of you!

[lingyai]

To return to my original question, it does seem that my hunch was right that the cirle of fifths is indeed a progression toolkit... I found this neat little "chordwheel" version of it on Amazon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0634 ... ss_product

[sjm]

890 pages

If you are only interested in figuring out what chords work together, one of the best things you can do is to look at the chords that make up your favourite songs and the classics. Start off with Bob Dylan or whatever (D G A, or C F G on the keyboard) and practice creating your own songs. You should be hearing which chord should come next. Once you've got the very basics down you can move on from there to things like blues (which also covers much of rock 'n' roll and some pop) and simple pop classics of yesteryear. There are a lot of people who used this approach to learn how to make music.

The Beatles can be a great source of learning in this respect, and they cover a lot of genres. There's also a general evolution in their songs from the more banal to the more harmonically interesting, before coming more or less full circle for Let it Be.

The theory side of things can help you, but if you're freaked at the thought of reading loads, you might be more of a hands on person. Learning from the greats will help you learn chords that you like the sound of together. You won't however know "why" they sound good together. You need to ask yourself whether you want to know that or not (at the end of the day, whether it sounds good is all that matters).

If you do want to learn some actual theory, it will of course take a while. If however you're put off by the general thought of needing to invest a lot of time into learning to make music - and aren't doing it simply for the joy of it - it's probably not for you! You will not go from zero to maestro overnight.

------

btw, I jammed using used the chord chart I posted when I first found the site years ago. Never tried the software, but I'd say I have a relatively decent grasp of chords etc. I wrote my first (terrible) songs when I was something like 8 years old The first decent song I wrote went like this:
Em D Em D C D Em D

[lingyai]

Thanks SJM for your reply

890 pages

If you are only interested in figuring out what chords work together, one of the best things you can do is to look at the chords that make up your favourite songs and the classics. ... There are a lot of people who used this approach to learn how to make music.

The Beatles can be a great source of learning in this respect, and they cover a lot of genres.

Great idea, I love them

There's also a general evolution in their songs from the more banal to the more harmonically interesting, before coming more or less full circle for Let it Be.

Oh c'mon, it's not that bad !

The theory side of things can help you, but if you're freaked at the thought of reading loads, you might be more of a hands on person. Learning from the greats will help you learn chords that you like the sound of together. You won't however know "why" they sound good together. You need to ask yourself whether you want to know that or not (at the end of the day, whether it sounds good is all that matters).

If you do want to learn some actual theory, it will of course take a while. If however you're put off by the general thought of needing to invest a lot of time into learning to make music - and aren't doing it simply for the joy of it - it's probably not for you! You will not go from zero to maestro overnight.

It's not so much the idea of being freaked by the thought of ANY study, but it's a matter of degree. Yeah, I am hands-on, and am doing it for the joy of it, and have realistic goals -- which don't include becoming a maestro, but rather emerging from random chimpanzeedom at the keyboard, to at least homo erectus. At the end of the day I have an ass-kicking day job, a book manuscript and an academic journal article to deliver, Kontakt 5 to learn, and an attention-starved girlfriend who's about to cut me off. So those better be some pretty damned useful 890 pages. Yes, I certainly am looking for shortcuts -- stuff I can put to use and have fun with fairly quickly. So... getting a better grasp of the "how" is good enough for now; I think it could grealty improve my composing skills (from their present near-0 base). Understanding the "why" ... well, if it's not essential (George Harrison couldn't even read music, after all) maybe that can wait until retirement

The first decent song I wrote went like this:
Em D Em D C D Em D

Consider it stolen...

[lingyai]

This also looks a pretty powerful learning / composing tool...

http://www.mucoder.net/en/tonespace/

[jancivil]

I would look at it more as a menu or a list of members of a food group rather than a recipe book. Music theory is an explanation of phenomena so you can have a conception of why something worked, not a handbook for writing. Is there a recipe book for literature writing?

[lingyai]

I would look at it more as a menu or a list of members of a food group rather than a recipe book. Music theory is an explanation of phenomena so you can have a conception of why something worked, not a handbook for writing. Is there a recipe book for literature writing?

Well, actually much literature is formulaic -- exposition, conflict, resolution, denoument... but anyway...

Recipe, ingredients list, buffet, pallete, road map, whatever... I'm not too fussed about the metaphor... what matters to me is the nudge which a tool like the circle of fifths can give beginners about which few chords will work together in a given case -- knowledge which, combined with some patience and a good ear, can yield a huge variety of nice compositions, and a better basis for experimentation, than pure guesswork.



No disrespect to people well-versed in musc theory -- on the contrary -- but there is an immediate payoff in finding that something works, without neccessarily knowing why... I bet you like doing things on a computer, but probably can't detail exactly what you're CPU is doing, yes?

[jancivil]

I would look at it more as a menu or a list of members of a food group rather than a recipe book. Music theory is an explanation of phenomena so you can have a conception of why something worked, not a handbook for writing. Is there a recipe book for literature writing?

Well, actually much literature is formulaic -- exposition, conflict, resolution, denoument... but anyway...

So, to replace creativity we can just input data into a machine and it will all be sorted?


I'm trying to help your understanding with that.