Dorian and Phrygian and Chord Progressions

[como baila]

I'm sure there is no simple answer to this question, but I'd just like the basic idea.

First, don't all modes from the C Major scale, i.e., D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc., basically harmonize with the triads from C Major, i.e., C, Dm, Em, etc?

OK ... using A Aeolian as an example to keep it simple, a common minor chord progression might be i/V/iv/IV ... in this case Am/E/Dm/F.

So, using the same i/V/iv/IV progression, would D Dorian be Dm/A/Gm/B?

And, E Phrygian Em/B/Am/C?

Or, once we leave A Aeolian, the natural relative minor, do we somehow build chords in a different way for Dorian and Phrygian?

Thanks ...

Como

[thebaggytrouseredone]

All triads would be diatonic to the mode, ie if using modes of C there would be no sharps or fats

Eg E Phrygian Em F G Am Bm7b5 C Dm Em

Eg D Dorian Dm Em F G Am Bm7b5 C Dm

I would change the Bm7b5 to a Bm if it suits the harmony better.

simon

[como baila]

Thanks, that's what I assumed in regards to the triads, but we all know what assuming can do!

Are you also confirming that the basic I-V cadence ... with switching between major or minor depending on which mode is selected to define the I ... is still standard way to go with Dorian and Phrygian?

Como

[jancivil]

I would avoid any chord that has a drive to the 'major' mode that shares the same notes as the mode;

for instance, a B diminished in either D dorian or E phrygian, and be careful with a G7, V7 of C can ruin the feeling of the tonic, it rather demands 'C' as that tonic.

if you're going to use chords with a mode, be selective and use the ones that bring out the character of it the best. The mode has a lot to offer without resorting to a lot of chord activity.

EG: Dm G7, Dm G7, really gets to sound like ii-V7 in C pretty quick, and perhaps at once.

[jancivil]

the basic I-V cadence ... with switching between major or minor depending on which mode is selected to define the I ... is still standard way to go with Dorian and Phrygian?

Como

No. V-I is for major and minor and is a functional harmony concept. V in E phrygian is B diminished, which is vii in C major and functions as a dominant to that tonic too easily.

Throw out the harmonic function ideas as they will tend to lead you, in eg., these white key cases to C major.

the mode's feel is established by the character tones; the flat second in phrygian, the flat sixth in phrygian and their sort of gravitational move to the lower neighbor. If you want a 'dominant' for E phrygian, F might fit the bill.

[istyle]

you need to emphasize the special note that make the mode like
E phrygian will have Fnatural instead of F# so you should play E,F for melody line and use chords that have F natural
same thing as D dorian will have Bnatural in place of Bb,so chordG will be Gmajor not Gm.

You can think of it like playing that tone in key of C but focus on that tone and its special note instead of C.
Example of mode that taught me a lot is Joe satriani 's music,he's into lydian a lot.

[como baila]

I knew I'd learn something, if I asked!

Thanks for pointing me towards what I need to study.

Como

[jancivil]

chords against a modal feel is a case of more is less, really. Keep it minimal and enjoy the mode's flavors, too much obscures it.

EG: Dm to G in a vamp is pretty useful in a D dorian feel, you get that character tone B natural in the G. But avoid the tritone B-F as it calls for a resolution to C.

The tonic shouldn't be obscured.

[robbie111]

Specifically for the D Dorian scale d,e,f,g,a,b,c,d use a Dmin7 chord as a backing track to see how it sounds. For the E Phrygian scale e,f,g,a,b,c,d,e use an Fmaj7b5/E (big name for a chord thats shaped like an open d major moved a couple of strings up. Index finger holds 2nd fret on A string, ring finger holds down 3rd fret on D string and middle holds down 2nd fret on the G string then just strum down on all 6 strings). That should give you the sounds of dorian and phrygian.

[Loki Fuego]

I think I should learn more about modes, especially considering difference from functional harmony.

[robbie111]

It's not as hard as people make it out to be. Just learn how your modes differ from a major scale and focus in on those note differences. For instance the next mode in Key of C after D Dorian and E Phrygian would be F Lydian. F Lydian differs from the F major scale by it's fourth note which is moved up a half step (Sharped if it's a natural, Natural if the fourth is a flat). F Lydian scale would be F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F. The difference is the 4th note (B) so make sure that note gets used in chords you have in your progression. So play an F major 7 and then get rid of it's C note on the B string and play that string open. You will have the F on the d string A on the g string open b on the b string and open e on the e string(FMaj7b5). If you want to make a progression take that chord (FMaj7b5) as your 1 chord and play the 5 chord (Cmaj7 which has the open B which is the note you want to hear because thats what makes the F Lydian different than F major). Hope that helps.
P.S. Just to add if you are into rock or metal try the F5 (F powerchord made up of F and C notes) and play that back and forth with an F b5 chord (F on low E string and B on the A string).

[diijay]

awesome stuff guys, thanks.