Yes, I have heard of different number of keys per octave in other forms of music, but the standard has became 12 microtunes per octave? Is there any particular reason for this, or is 12 keys just became widespread and popular due to people adopting it? Are music with different number of keys/microtunes viable? Can the number of keys be changed in DAWs?
Making some modern music with different number of keys would be cool! It depends on whether it is really viable or even as good as 12-keys one.
The use of having 12 keys per octave for MIDI keyboards...
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Acer Hyperspace Acer Hyperspace https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=264573
- KVRist
- 139 posts since 12 Sep, 2011
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- KVRian
- 1030 posts since 14 May, 2008 from Tralfamadore
12 notes per octave is based on the even or equal tempered scale which has predominated Western music for thousands of years. You can get micro-tuning or non traditional equal tempered scales for many synths and many already have these scales as options. You can also get a program called Scala to do your own micro-tuning. There is a list of synths that support tunable scales on that site.
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/index.html
You can also get non-traditional keyboards for exotic scales:
http://www.starrlabs.com/products/keybo ... zone-u-990
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/index.html
You can also get non-traditional keyboards for exotic scales:
http://www.starrlabs.com/products/keybo ... zone-u-990
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Acer Hyperspace Acer Hyperspace https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=264573
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 139 posts since 12 Sep, 2011
Thanks for the info! My favourite synths which I plan to buy, Omnisphere and Octopus, has the option! Sounds cool! Ever had anyone doing electronic music on different microtunes? It would be interesting to hear how they sound like!Bobbotov wrote:12 notes per octave is based on the even or equal tempered scale which has predominated Western music for thousands of years. You can get micro-tuning or non traditional equal tempered scales for many synths and many already have these scales as options. You can also get a program called Scala to do your own micro-tuning. There is a list of synths that support tunable scales on that site.
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/index.html
You can also get non-traditional keyboards for exotic scales:
http://www.starrlabs.com/products/keybo ... zone-u-990
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- KVRian
- 1209 posts since 11 Jan, 2006 from Pittsburgh
Check out the album Beauty In The Beast by Wendy Carlos. Lots of interesting tunings, and excellent synthesizer programming too.Acer Hyperspace wrote:Thanks for the info! My favourite synths which I plan to buy, Omnisphere and Octopus, has the option! Sounds cool! Ever had anyone doing electronic music on different microtunes? It would be interesting to hear how they sound like!Bobbotov wrote:12 notes per octave is based on the even or equal tempered scale which has predominated Western music for thousands of years. You can get micro-tuning or non traditional equal tempered scales for many synths and many already have these scales as options. You can also get a program called Scala to do your own micro-tuning. There is a list of synths that support tunable scales on that site.
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/index.html
You can also get non-traditional keyboards for exotic scales:
http://www.starrlabs.com/products/keybo ... zone-u-990
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- Skunk Mod
- 21249 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture
I'll second this recommendation. Be sure to read the liner notes too. (I hope they're still in modern versions; I have it on vinyl.)DocAtlas wrote:Check out the album Beauty In The Beast by Wendy Carlos. Lots of interesting tunings, and excellent synthesizer programming too.
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- KVRian
- 1030 posts since 14 May, 2008 from Tralfamadore
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- KVRAF
- 5223 posts since 20 Jul, 2010
A nice way to give some microtonal flavour is to use a stretched octave. You can make this even in synths that do not support tuning options, provided there's a mod matrix. Just modulate pitch by midi note number a little bit, positively (for a stretched octave) or negatively (for a shrunk octave). Adjust to taste.
You can also create quartertone scales, or any kind of equal temporament, by holding down two keys the interval you wish to equate to an octave, and adjusting the stretch amount until they sound as octaves. I've created a few microtonal piano pieces this way.
You can also create quartertone scales, or any kind of equal temporament, by holding down two keys the interval you wish to equate to an octave, and adjusting the stretch amount until they sound as octaves. I've created a few microtonal piano pieces this way.
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!
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- KVRist
- 109 posts since 15 Jul, 2010
First, there were much less notes per octave.
Our original tunings came from the natural harmonic series, in which a tonic would appear first, then the octave above this tonic, then an octave and fifth above, a double octave, then a double octave and a third, so on. This series is part of nature.
This series can be used to create what we call the major pentatonic scale, a scale natural in all ancient cultures that developed tonal music (European, Asian, Native American and some African cultures). Eventually, certain tribes around Asia minor and southern Europe began adding notes to this pentatonic series and in some cases inverting certain intervals, so as to create minor scales. For instance, the tribes of Phyrgia would add a minor second. These we call modes.
Long down the path, European composers (namely Gregorian monks), found certain elements of certain modes held certain characteristics that were effective, namely the leading tone of the mode they called Lydian. Transferring this to other major modes helped create what we call today the major scale, as well as allow a grounds for development in harmony (as a full cadence needs a leading tone). Similarly, an amalgamation of the Dorian and Phrygian Modes to create what we call the minor scale. Keep in mind, what some scholars call the "Ionian" and the "Aeolian" modes did not exist in Ancient Greek music theory.
Even later, some composers began adding the leading tone to the minor scale, which needed a note previously non-existent. Furthermore, more composers began building scales off of non-standard notes. These in combination lead to the creation of the 12 tone scale and system found only in Western music. To continue this evolution, some composers began modulating their music mid-playing (a device which worked well due to harmonic reasons), which sounded artificial due to the effects of just intonation causing these other keys to sound obviously out of tune. Galilei (IIRC) devised a system in which all keys were equally out of tune and equally in tune, which gave composers the freedom to modulate and freely use chromaticism. This is equal temperament.
And that is our 12 tone equal temperament, our system even allows composers to use each of these 12 tones in a composition, something else uniquely western (to my knowledge).
Our system works because it came about a long line of thoughtful evolutionary processes. Other cultures developed different, like Arabic Classical which never really did escape a reliance on drone notes (something that ceased circa 14th century for Westerners). For them, they began focusing more on the variations possible between notes and theorising how these notes should be used.
It's tempting to want to break away from this in some effect to be contrary, but I honestly recommend you keep your faith in the 12 tone system.
Our original tunings came from the natural harmonic series, in which a tonic would appear first, then the octave above this tonic, then an octave and fifth above, a double octave, then a double octave and a third, so on. This series is part of nature.
This series can be used to create what we call the major pentatonic scale, a scale natural in all ancient cultures that developed tonal music (European, Asian, Native American and some African cultures). Eventually, certain tribes around Asia minor and southern Europe began adding notes to this pentatonic series and in some cases inverting certain intervals, so as to create minor scales. For instance, the tribes of Phyrgia would add a minor second. These we call modes.
Long down the path, European composers (namely Gregorian monks), found certain elements of certain modes held certain characteristics that were effective, namely the leading tone of the mode they called Lydian. Transferring this to other major modes helped create what we call today the major scale, as well as allow a grounds for development in harmony (as a full cadence needs a leading tone). Similarly, an amalgamation of the Dorian and Phrygian Modes to create what we call the minor scale. Keep in mind, what some scholars call the "Ionian" and the "Aeolian" modes did not exist in Ancient Greek music theory.
Even later, some composers began adding the leading tone to the minor scale, which needed a note previously non-existent. Furthermore, more composers began building scales off of non-standard notes. These in combination lead to the creation of the 12 tone scale and system found only in Western music. To continue this evolution, some composers began modulating their music mid-playing (a device which worked well due to harmonic reasons), which sounded artificial due to the effects of just intonation causing these other keys to sound obviously out of tune. Galilei (IIRC) devised a system in which all keys were equally out of tune and equally in tune, which gave composers the freedom to modulate and freely use chromaticism. This is equal temperament.
And that is our 12 tone equal temperament, our system even allows composers to use each of these 12 tones in a composition, something else uniquely western (to my knowledge).
Our system works because it came about a long line of thoughtful evolutionary processes. Other cultures developed different, like Arabic Classical which never really did escape a reliance on drone notes (something that ceased circa 14th century for Westerners). For them, they began focusing more on the variations possible between notes and theorising how these notes should be used.
It's tempting to want to break away from this in some effect to be contrary, but I honestly recommend you keep your faith in the 12 tone system.
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- D.H. MOD
- 17877 posts since 21 Jun, 2008
Possibly of interest: http://www.split-notes.com/Acer Hyperspace wrote:Ever had anyone doing electronic music on different microtunes? It would be interesting to hear how they sound like!
No longer a moderator.
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- KVRer
- 15 posts since 2 Feb, 2009 from Sweden
Contrary to popular belief, traditional western music is not based on a 12 note system (the only 12 tone music I know of, is that of Schönberg).
Standard notation uses 35 notes per octave (but nothing is stopping you from using triple or quadruple accidentals, etc).
If you want to use equal temperament (to be able to modulate freely between all keys) you need to choose the number of keys per octave so that all intervals become reasonably tempered (and using more than 35 keys would usually be pointless). This limits the choice to 12, 19 and 31 keys/octave.
Here is a video where a guy rearranges the keys on a standard MIDI keyboard, turning it into a 19-TET keyboard:
The best part is that you can use the same notation with 19-TET, so you can play any piece without modification (you just need to keep in mind that different notes are enharmonically equivalent; for example, in 19-TET F# is the same as Gbb, not Gb as in 12-TET).
Standard notation uses 35 notes per octave (but nothing is stopping you from using triple or quadruple accidentals, etc).
If you want to use equal temperament (to be able to modulate freely between all keys) you need to choose the number of keys per octave so that all intervals become reasonably tempered (and using more than 35 keys would usually be pointless). This limits the choice to 12, 19 and 31 keys/octave.
Here is a video where a guy rearranges the keys on a standard MIDI keyboard, turning it into a 19-TET keyboard:
The best part is that you can use the same notation with 19-TET, so you can play any piece without modification (you just need to keep in mind that different notes are enharmonically equivalent; for example, in 19-TET F# is the same as Gbb, not Gb as in 12-TET).
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I started moving towards other things because I found 12-t ET deficient; I found the eurocentric approach deficient, and this attitude wanting. 'It's evolutionary', implying the Arabic musics, eg., are stuck in a primitive mode. This props up a cultural prejudice and is the cart that you ask to lead the horse of your argument. "Chord changes and harmonic modulation are superior to other ideas, hence..."jlocri wrote:
It's tempting to want to break away from this in some effect to be contrary, but I honestly recommend you keep your faith in the 12 tone system.
Personally I don't find that premise valid per se.
12-tone is perfect for dodecaphony, on the other hand.
People that like harmony to resound better 'break away' from equal temperament in concert with other players when they are able because of the deficiency of the intervals, particularly the thirds and sixths, all the time.
Leaving aside Arabic intonation, Indian intonation uses inflections that are more 'just', seeking to obtain something on the order of 3:2 from say your major third to major sixth. That concord is desirable per se, in melody. The richness of the melody for a person in the tradition rather obviates the need for vertical harmony. It's an aesthetic, it's cultural. There is no 'superior' objectively, for me.
Historically intonations and temperament theory launches from the 3:2 perfect fifth, fudging by 'commmas' to fit the 2:1 octave, since geometrically speaking it won't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_inton ... ian_scales
there are 22 pitches there, which is 12 basic ones and ten variants using the syntonic comma 81:80 to obtain this desired result (the tonic and perfect fifth as inviolate). Now, in the Vienna Ensemble Pro interface, should I want I can set matrices to obtain this kind of concord in harmony and modulate and still use a normal key controller. It was a feature requested often enough to implement it, demonstrating the idea's desirability to the orchestral composer market, in fact.
IME, one of the 'needs' for all of this chordal action owes something to the fact that tempered instruments such as the piano are demonstrably less resonant, have a thwarted sonorousness. Although it seems a bit of a chicken and egg question upon reflection...