Identifying the key of a passage

[como baila]

I aspire only to huff and puff up small hills.

Como

In which case the book I mentioned might be especially worth your while

Errrh ... I said "small hills," not bumps in the road. I passed Tonics and Dominants, Cycle of Fifths, relative minors and Roman Numerals awhile go.

While you can't judge a book by the cover, the reviews I read on Amazon indicate that in this case, the cover is the book. Which is not to say it might not be very useful to a beginner.

I dare say, Michael Hewitt's 'Harmony for Computer Musicians' is more than a tad more comprehensive.

Como

[lingyai]

I aspire only to huff and puff up small hills.

Como

In which case the book I mentioned might be especially worth your while

Errrh ... I said "small hills," not bumps in the road. I passed Tonics and Dominants, Cycle of Fifths, relative minors and Roman Numerals awhile go.

While you can't judge a book by the cover, the reviews I read on Amazon indicate that in this case, the cover is the book. Which is not to say it might not be very useful to a beginner.

I dare say, Michael Hewitt's 'Harmony for Computer Musicians' is more than a tad more comprehensive.

Como

Sorry, I mistook you for the OP, who mentioned getting confused by roman numerals.

Personally, having just read the book, I can say that the book is not merely the cover; it is a very good introduction for beginners -- this one anyway.

But as you are plainly in a different league, feel free to dismiss it.

[jancivil]

Can you briefly explain the relationship between keys and chords/modes? The terminology is getting ambiguous for me.

"Roman numerals indicate the root of the chord as a scale degree within a particular major key as follows:"

So when I see roman numerals in upper and lower cases getting tossed around, I don't know what the writer is talking about.

'I', or 'i' if the quality is 'minor', corresponds with the nominal key; *key center*.

The purpose of these questions is that for orchestration I need to add in the chords for given monodic tunes.

You're trying to run before you can crawl with that.

There is a reason OV or I will react badly to 'for computer musicians', contained in the blurb material 'from the basis of the midi keyboard'; ie., as applied to a software sequencer's piano roll. Which shows all non-white keys as sharps. An outcome of that is needing to address questions that begin with eg., 'C minor: C D# G', which is quite problematic..

Also, 'for computer musicians' is some marketing strategy. It advertises itself as if special, and it isn't. The computer is not IME the best platform for the task, owing to, for instance, the need to sxplain spelling to people that have become accustomed to 'C D# G'. The individual with this product markets it like it is such a fact of life you need a special product to address it. That only serves his marketing strategy.

[como baila]

Also, 'for computer musicians' is some marketing strategy. It advertises itself as if special, and it isn't. The computer is not IME the best platform for the task, owing to, for instance, the need to sxplain spelling to people that have become accustomed to 'C D# G'. The individual with this product markets it like it is such a fact of life you need a special product to address it. That only serves his marketing strategy.

Jan ... no disrespect, but have you actually looked at Michael Hewitt's 'Harmony for Computer Musicians?'

Every illustrated example includes both 'piano roll' and notation.

There are many people who will never have either the time or money to pursue a formal music education. They will gather what tools they can as they find them. To call, if you are referring to Hewitt's three books, his titles a 'marketing strategy' is certainly only a partial, minor truth. Yes, there are hordes of uneducated, hungry 'computer musicians' out there. Why wouldn't someone seeing their interest and needs focus a title so that they would be interested to investigate his book?

But then, it all depends on the content and how well it is written.

If you have read 'Harmony for Computer Musicians,' please advise of any equivalent books on harmony for the beginning to intermediate student that you would recommend.

Como

[jancivil]

ah, I'm just addressing my own reaction and I imagine OV's isn't different. forget about it.
It is pure marketing... 'from the basis of the midi keyboard' is a suspect term, but YMMV.


I wouldn't buy it, I would go to the library. He isn't reinventing the wheel and it costs money apparently.



Piston 'Harmony'; Siegmeister 'Harmony and Melody', used/college bookstores typa thing...

[lingyai]

[lingyai]

Never let facts interfere with a deeply ingrained attitude

[Ogg Vorbis]

I'll chime in too on the whole "computer musician" thing... looking it over, it appears to not give much depth. but people have gotten something from the Hewitt stuff and that's great.

It also always makes me wince to read "for computer musicians." It seems kind of insulting... like "Instructions for Operating the Black & Decker 2 Slot Toaster....for Computer Musicians"

[jancivil]

ok, I was eschewing emphasizing the *specialness* of it all, but wtf.

[como baila]

I'll chime in too on the whole "computer musician" thing... looking it over, it appears to not give much depth. but people have gotten something from the Hewitt stuff and that's great.

It also always makes me wince to read "for computer musicians." It seems kind of insulting... like "Instructions for Operating the Black & Decker 2 Slot Toaster....for Computer Musicians"

Absolutely without sarcasm and all wincing aside ... esteemed members, Jancivil and O.V., have either of you actually read Hewitt's 'Harmony for Computer Musicians?'

I'm not trying to bait a bear. I hugely appreciate both of your generous and knowledgeable contributions to this forum.

But if the title puts you off, do you really think that is a fair way to assess the content?

I recuse myself.

Como

[Ogg Vorbis]

You can go on Amazon and look at the table of contents, read the introduction and initial chapters to gain some sense of the scope of the book. I did this because it comes up frequently, and I was curious - genuinley curious why computer musicians get a one-off book on harmony.

What I saw sort of dished it out as "here it is" without much explanation of function or why things are the way they are.

But that all leads us back to the old discussion we were having earlier about mountains and hills and bumps in the road.

I don't mean to be dogmatic, old school or a fuddy-duddy. It's purely a philosophical approach-type preference that I have. In spite of my sarcasm with the title, I don't outright trash the Hewitt stuff. It's just not how I personally do it.

[jancivil]

what Ogg said.

I wouldn't take it too seriously really.

Oh, and I am not singling out lingvai out with the 'special' thing. He/she has a situation which makes being a computer musician the primary mode of operation. {EDIT: scratch that. This is the person that asked a whole lot of questions about Hanon and scales. Then there was the diatribe by personal message 'I have pled for your tolerance' as you are missing some fingers, per the great offense of my "preaching" about 'get some hands on experience'. Then the wild and vicious personal attack... The sarod player isn't allowed to used more than two fingers on the fingering hand. The instrument is capable of the most divine expression. Sitar players do not use the little finger and mostly employ the index and middle. Django Reinhardt lost his ring and small finger in a fire, stopping him not at all. I have grave damage to the ulna nerve in my left arm since college age and developed techniques to compensate for when I have no control of the ring and middle fingers. If you're looking to cop out of something, cop the f**k out. If in fact you have this perceived disability, and have told no one, I don't see how you have any business crying about my opinion, 'someone in music should learn music on a musical instrument'. As if personally directed at you, every bit of it. You have a lot of attitude for a beginner soliciting help from strangers.}


In general, putting the piano roll in the middle of an understanding of the information has shown itself in this forum to be a bit of a stumbling block.

As I said, I am genuninely glad for whomever gets something out of the thing. I think putting money toward it might be better invested, but that's just an opinion. Yours if it differs isn't any skin off me.


as far as any deeply ingrained attitude, I was making music with midi on a computer in 1986. I would have looked askance at 'for computer musicians' then probably. That's just me.

[canadianlight]

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/ ... o_takeover

http://www.howmusicworks.org/600/ChordS ... -Relations

I just found these sites, they look more pertinent than most sites/dummy books.

Can't find the chord wheel book in local bookstores, I don't want to order it before reading it.

Do these links look adequate?

[jancivil]

the one for guitarists, despite the specialness of THAT idea is laid out very well, concise and clear.
the way the other site was arranged wasn't something I wanted to look at all, YMMV.

[canadianlight]

I think I'm figuring it out without buying anything.

Some specific answers would clear up some idea:

1. From which voice do you analyze the music if it has more than one? Is it the one that is carrying the melody? Because for monodies like a simple tune, the melody is all you've got to work with. In cases of classical music that use folk themes, the accompaniments were later added, not the other way around. But many people seem to focus on the bass line.

2. Is there a good way to determine the rhythm at which the chord progresses?

3. In which repertoire do you see extreme examples that tonality becomes ambiguous? Do you see it in pop, Schubert's songs or Renaissance music? Or is it only among the really complicated/avant-garde stuff?

4. Are the rules absolute? If not they are of no help. By rules I mean the 4 (and only 4!) types of cadences, a region based on a key must always end on an authentic cadence etc... This is for tonal music only of course.

Thank you.