KVR Audio

ZombyWoof · Post by **ZombyWoof** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:30 pm

Has anyone come across any info for a new low-level audio API that will open up Android for real-time audio? I was hoping for improvements in Android 4 (ICS), but I haven't seen much of anything reported so far.

IF YOU WANT AUDIO AND MUSIC APPLICATIONS FOR ANDROID PLEASE EXPRESS YOURSELF AND VOTE BY GOING TO THE FOLLOWING TOPIC AND CLICKING THE STAR IN THE UPPERLEFT CORNER:
http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id= 3434&sort=-stars&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Owne r%20Summary%20Stars

This will rise the imporance of the issue and maybe eventually Android developers will do something about it.

Chickenman · Post by **Chickenman** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:55 am

The only thing I recall is an article discussing ICS and the fact that there hadn't been any significant headway made.

Karmacomposer · Post by **Karmacomposer** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:41 am

Yep. I pretty much gave up on Android zero latency. It's a shame too. The hardware is totally capable of it, but the OS drags it down and they don't seem to care about fixing it.

Mike

UltraJv · Post by **UltraJv** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:45 am

I have posted this before but despite that, there are still people who think Android cant do low latency. Nothing needs fixing except perception. It can and does do low latency :

by brianbane » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:11 am

"We've actually begun an initial foray into Android development recently, completing some successful tests of low-latency audio. It will still be several months away, but we should present some Android offerings in the future"

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f= 10&t=553

SingleCell · Post by **SingleCell** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:02 am

UltraJv wrote:I have posted this before but despite that, there are still people who think Android cant do low latency. Nothing needs fixing except perception. It can and does do low latency :

by brianbane » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:11 am

"We've actually begun an initial foray into Android development recently, completing some successful tests of low-latency audio. It will still be several months away, but we should present some Android offerings in the future"

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f= 10&t=553

Then they should release something to prove it. Anything. Even a one-button sine generator that does so. Short of re-writing their own version of Android and sound driver for each phone they want supported, I'm not sure this more than marketing hype. I'd love for them to prove me wrong, but there are lots of smart people who have tried and failed to find a workaround to Android's horrible Audio API. But saying it can easily do low-latency makes developers look lazy. We work with the platform APIs we're given. On iOS, you get CoreAudio with its tiny buffers, on Android you get AudioTrack and its 3000+ sample buffers.

UltraJv · Post by **UltraJv** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:14 am

SingleCell wrote:
UltraJv wrote:I have posted this before but despite that, there are still people who think Android cant do low latency. Nothing needs fixing except perception. It can and does do low latency :

by brianbane » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:11 am

"We've actually begun an initial foray into Android development recently, completing some successful tests of low-latency audio. It will still be several months away, but we should present some Android offerings in the future"

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f= 10&t=553
Then they should release something to prove it. Anything. Even a one-button sine generator that does so. Short of re-writing their own version of Android and sound driver for each phone they want supported, I'm not sure this more than marketing hype. I'd love for them to prove me wrong, but there are lots of smart people who have tried and failed to find a workaround to Android's horrible Audio API. But saying it can easily do low-latency makes developers look lazy. We work with the platform APIs we're given. On iOS, you get CoreAudio with its tiny buffers, on Android you get AudioTrack and its 3000+ sample buffers.

I run Caustic special version demo on my GT540, it works with low enough latency to be fun. Kudos to you. Im not saying anyone is lazy, just that I can have fun with things that are around now. I dont know what people do to get bad performance with better hardware than me?

Karmacomposer · Post by **Karmacomposer** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:15 am

I agree with SingleCell - please point to any music-making app that delivers less than 25ms latency on ALL Android devices - not just yours and yours alone.

I am an app developer. I own four languages that specialize in multi-deployment to mobile devices. Three of them compile to binary or machine code, so they are simply not going to get any faster.

All of them cannot offer immediate results (I assume 50ms latency or more) no matter how hard I try. I put one button. Attached either a wav, aiff, mp3, ogg and a few other formats of varying size and compression to that button. Compiled and ran it on the devices - being a HTC Evo, Acer Iconia A500 and a Viewsonic Gtablet (rooted with the newest Vegan Tab OS).

All three held the EXACT same results. I press the button and a second or so later, the sound plays.

That is one stinkin button and four lines of code. That should - and I say - should run INSTANTLY due to NO complexity what-so-ever.

However, the delay is very real and exactly the same across all three devices. All three devices have the most updated version of Android on each. The Acer having the latest edition and built of 3.x.

Now, this delay is FINE for playing a movie or a song. It is just fine for a soundboard or simple sample player used for FUN. But it simply will not due when you are trying to play the Android like a musical keyboard and require split-second reaction so that when you play, it just feels right.

On the Ipad2, all music apps are instant. This is because it is using the EXACT SAME ENGINE as the Macs. The core audio and midi is EXACTLY the same. If Microsoft makes an Android-like OS (that worked - lol) and simply ported windows sound system with ASIO to it - as it is on a windows 7 pc - and it had all the same features - apples to apples - as an Android tablet or like the Ipad2 - then there would be little arguement, but since Microsoft still has not released its newest version of a mobile OS or made a tablet with its stamp on it - or Microsoft's current try simply has not garnered the popularity and widespread use of Android, then we are stuck with Android and Apple Ipad. The Ipad is the only one of the two that was built with audio/midi in mind.\

And, to date, as far as I know, you cannot use external hardware like a audio I/O box with MIDI and pro audio connectors (I use a Presonus) with any Android device, yet I can and do use it with the iPad.

Mike

UltraJv · Post by **UltraJv** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:21 am

Karmacomposer wrote:I agree with SingleCell - please point to any music-making app that delivers less than 25ms latency on ALL Android devices - not just yours and yours alone.

I am an app developer. I own four languages that specialize in multi-deployment to mobile devices. Three of them compile to binary or machine code, so they are simply not going to get any faster.

All of them cannot offer immediate results (I assume 50ms latency or more) no matter how hard I try. I put one button. Attached either a wav, aiff, mp3, ogg and a few other formats of varying size and compression to that button. Compiled and ran it on the devices - being a HTC Evo, Acer Iconia A500 and a Viewsonic Gtablet (rooted with the newest Vegan Tab OS).

All three held the EXACT same results. I press the button and a second or so later, the sound plays.

That is one stinkin button and four lines of code. That should - and I say - should run INSTANTLY due to NO complexity what-so-ever.

However, the delay is very real and exactly the same across all three devices. All three devices have the most updated version of Android on each. The Acer having the latest edition and built of 3.x.

On the Ipad2, all music apps are instant. This is because it is using the EXACT SAME ENGINE as the Macs. The core audio and midi is EXACTLY the same. If Microsoft makes an Android-like OS (that worked - lol) and simply ported windows sound system with ASIO to it - as it is on a windows 7 pc - and it had all the same features - apples to apples - as an Android tablet or like the Ipad2 - then there would be little arguement, but since Microsoft still has not released its newest version of a mobile OS or made a tablet with its stamp on it - or Microsoft's current try simply has not garnered the popularity and widespread use of Android, then we are stuck with Android and Apple Ipad. The Ipad is the only one of the two that was built with audio/midi in mind.

Mike

Seems Ive upset the Apple cart lol - SO much hot air when I just have fun on Android. No need to prove anything here, I know your an Apple fan boy. These things are just toys, I wouldnt add anything to any mobile device I have. Why try to make a toy into a DAW? I already have a DAW

Karmacomposer · Post by **Karmacomposer** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:26 am

UltraJv wrote:
Karmacomposer wrote:I agree with SingleCell - please point to any music-making app that delivers less than 25ms latency on ALL Android devices - not just yours and yours alone.

I am an app developer. I own four languages that specialize in multi-deployment to mobile devices. Three of them compile to binary or machine code, so they are simply not going to get any faster.

All of them cannot offer immediate results (I assume 50ms latency or more) no matter how hard I try. I put one button. Attached either a wav, aiff, mp3, ogg and a few other formats of varying size and compression to that button. Compiled and ran it on the devices - being a HTC Evo, Acer Iconia A500 and a Viewsonic Gtablet (rooted with the newest Vegan Tab OS).

All three held the EXACT same results. I press the button and a second or so later, the sound plays.

That is one stinkin button and four lines of code. That should - and I say - should run INSTANTLY due to NO complexity what-so-ever.

However, the delay is very real and exactly the same across all three devices. All three devices have the most updated version of Android on each. The Acer having the latest edition and built of 3.x.

On the Ipad2, all music apps are instant. This is because it is using the EXACT SAME ENGINE as the Macs. The core audio and midi is EXACTLY the same. If Microsoft makes an Android-like OS (that worked - lol) and simply ported windows sound system with ASIO to it - as it is on a windows 7 pc - and it had all the same features - apples to apples - as an Android tablet or like the Ipad2 - then there would be little arguement, but since Microsoft still has not released its newest version of a mobile OS or made a tablet with its stamp on it - or Microsoft's current try simply has not garnered the popularity and widespread use of Android, then we are stuck with Android and Apple Ipad. The Ipad is the only one of the two that was built with audio/midi in mind.

Mike
Seems Ive upset the Apple cart lol - SO much hot air when I just have fun on Android. No need to prove anything here. These thinsg are toys

First of all, I am not an apple lover. In fact, I hate Macs. I love my PCs, but I simply cannot ignore the power of the iPad2 with music making apps.

And, yes. If all you want to do is have fun then the Android makes for a wonderful and expensive toy. However, if you seriously want to make music on the go when inspiration strikes or when you are sitting in a waiting room with time to kill or you are at a local wifi spot drinking coffee and have a portable keyboard and an iPad2 with Meteor or any other amazing DAW or synth, you can truly pump out top quality music quickly, easily and with amazingly good results. I happen to know a few well-paid musicians - some with big names - that do exactly this to get inspiration or begin their next album. On the iPad, it's for real. On the Android, it's a freakin experiment - and one not doing so well.

Mike

UltraJv · Post by **UltraJv** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:27 am

Karmacomposer wrote:
UltraJv wrote:
Karmacomposer wrote:I agree with SingleCell - please point to any music-making app that delivers less than 25ms latency on ALL Android devices - not just yours and yours alone.

I am an app developer. I own four languages that specialize in multi-deployment to mobile devices. Three of them compile to binary or machine code, so they are simply not going to get any faster.

All of them cannot offer immediate results (I assume 50ms latency or more) no matter how hard I try. I put one button. Attached either a wav, aiff, mp3, ogg and a few other formats of varying size and compression to that button. Compiled and ran it on the devices - being a HTC Evo, Acer Iconia A500 and a Viewsonic Gtablet (rooted with the newest Vegan Tab OS).

All three held the EXACT same results. I press the button and a second or so later, the sound plays.

That is one stinkin button and four lines of code. That should - and I say - should run INSTANTLY due to NO complexity what-so-ever.

However, the delay is very real and exactly the same across all three devices. All three devices have the most updated version of Android on each. The Acer having the latest edition and built of 3.x.

On the Ipad2, all music apps are instant. This is because it is using the EXACT SAME ENGINE as the Macs. The core audio and midi is EXACTLY the same. If Microsoft makes an Android-like OS (that worked - lol) and simply ported windows sound system with ASIO to it - as it is on a windows 7 pc - and it had all the same features - apples to apples - as an Android tablet or like the Ipad2 - then there would be little arguement, but since Microsoft still has not released its newest version of a mobile OS or made a tablet with its stamp on it - or Microsoft's current try simply has not garnered the popularity and widespread use of Android, then we are stuck with Android and Apple Ipad. The Ipad is the only one of the two that was built with audio/midi in mind.

Mike
Seems Ive upset the Apple cart lol - SO much hot air when I just have fun on Android. No need to prove anything here. These thinsg are toys
First of all, I am not an apple lover. In fact, I hate Macs. I love my PCs, but I simply cannot ignore the power of the iPad2 with music making apps.

And, yes. If all you want to do is have fun then the Android makes for a wonderful and expensive toy. However, if you seriously want to make music on the go when inspiration strikes or when you are sitting in a waiting room with time to kill or you are at a local wifi spot drinking coffee and have a portable keyboard and an iPad2 with Meteor or any other amazing DAW or synth, you can truly pump out top quality music quickly, easily and with amazingly good results. I happen to know a few well-paid musicians - some with big names - that do exactly this to get inspiration or begin their next album. On the iPad, it's for real. On the Android, it's a freakin experiment - and one not doing so well.

Mike

I paid £110 for my Android GT540 - expensive - no. It allows me to play with all Android apps. Sorry youre not having as much fun as me, maybe spend less and shop wisely. I was almost with you until you went all kool aid and pro musos do it lol

Chickenman · Post by **Chickenman** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:06 am

UltraJv wrote:
I paid £110 for my Android GT540 - expensive - no. It allows me to play with all Android apps. Sorry youre not having as much fun as me, maybe spend less and shop wisely. I was almost with you until you went all kool aid and pro musos do it lol

UltraJv · Post by **UltraJv** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:29 am

Chickenman wrote:
UltraJv wrote:
I paid £110 for my Android GT540 - expensive - no. It allows me to play with all Android apps. Sorry youre not having as much fun as me, maybe spend less and shop wisely. I was almost with you until you went all kool aid and pro musos do it lol

Well, the fact that Im able to get low latency audio on Android with a cheap phone means Im doing something right. I use Cyanogenmod to do this. People can complain all they like. I just use this custom ROM and its much faster. Ive been told that nobody else will do this for audio. I didnt do it for audio attall, I like to mess with OS and low latency was a side effect :

http://www.cyanogenmod.com/

You can of course update IOS - as in this video

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... k-s-phones

penguinfromdeep · Post by **penguinfromdeep** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:38 am

+1 Karmacomposer, and he definitely isn't a mac fanboy, he used to develop for PCs long time now afaik

UltraJv · Post by **UltraJv** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:45 am

Well, Ive given the info on what I do to get low latency audio on Android. You can all carry on saying how its not possible now. Im out

TristezaOrange · Post by **TristezaOrange** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:51 am

Unfortunately it seems like we Android fans are screwed as far as audio apps go. Sure, I have Caustic and any other decent music making app on the Market but for real-time playing- forget it. I don't think Google considers it important enough. We get stylus support with ICS (stylus support FFS) but not any improvement on the audio side.

Low latency audio in Android 4 (Ice Cream Sandwich)