indistinguishable from hardware ??

[Urs]

Digital saw? There are anti-aliasing artifacts typical for bandlimiting. That's why I think it's not analogue in origin, whether it went through an A/D or not.

You get the same "artifacts" when sampling a pure sawtooth waveform from an analogue synth.

Old synths typically close filters around or below 15kHz, which makes those artifacts disappear. Same happens in digital implementations.

[osiris]

Pretty much the same for me Urs. The voltage on the SE ADSR ran from i - 10 so I think that's a fair trick. I think I did read somewhere the envelope on the J6 was a negative value (or very very short)

[UltraJv]

That wouldn't work. I could just look at the waves in an oscillator. You can tell the difference by the way they are anti-aliased.

Really?

This could be anything. You could stitch cycles from analogue and digital osc's together.
It doesn't look like the result of a Chebyshev in an A/D converter, so I'll say digital.

Digital what? And it did go through A/D conversion.

Digital saw? There are anti-aliasing artifacts typical for bandlimiting. That's why I think it's not analogue in origin, whether it went through an A/D or not.

I thought the idea was to see if you could hear the difference not a computer. If you need to use a computer = fail.

[izonin]

Digital saw? There are anti-aliasing artifacts typical for bandlimiting. That's why I think it's not analogue in origin, whether it went through an A/D or not.

You get the same "artifacts" when sampling a pure sawtooth waveform from an analogue synth.

Old synths typically close filters around or below 15kHz, which makes those artifacts disappear. Same happens in digital implementations.

But doesn't the Chebyshev in the A/D leave a different mark, which is closer to minBLEP? At least that is my experience, using that filter on naive saws.

[izonin]

That wouldn't work. I could just look at the waves in an oscillator. You can tell the difference by the way they are anti-aliased.

Really?

This could be anything. You could stitch cycles from analogue and digital osc's together.
It doesn't look like the result of a Chebyshev in an A/D converter, so I'll say digital.

Digital what? And it did go through A/D conversion.

Digital saw? There are anti-aliasing artifacts typical for bandlimiting. That's why I think it's not analogue in origin, whether it went through an A/D or not.

I thought the idea was to see if you could hear the difference not a computer. If you need to use a computer = fail.

The difference is in the filter. I said that I would be tempted to look at the wave to tell whether it's an analogue synth, or an emulation.

[Urs]

Digital saw? There are anti-aliasing artifacts typical for bandlimiting. That's why I think it's not analogue in origin, whether it went through an A/D or not.

You get the same "artifacts" when sampling a pure sawtooth waveform from an analogue synth.

Old synths typically close filters around or below 15kHz, which makes those artifacts disappear. Same happens in digital implementations.

But doesn't the Chebyshev in the A/D leave a different mark, which is closer to minBLEP? At least that is my experience, using that filter on naive saws.

I think there's quite some differences between A/D converters. Depends on the closing frequency I guess, to some degree.

Btw. anyone who's not using miniBLEPs or anything similar nowadays might have quite a problem getting some convincing emulations going, expecially when audio rate modulations come in.

[hakey]

Old synths typically close filters around or below 15kHz, which makes those artifacts disappear.

Slightly OT - I remember you saying you were surprised at how high the filter on the Mini you have closes - 25kHz or so(?) - well according to this article the original filter found on the white face Odysseys opened to 35kHz!

[Urs]

Old synths typically close filters around or below 15kHz, which makes those artifacts disappear.

Slightly OT - I remember you saying you were surprised at how high the filter on the Mini you have closes - 25kHz or so(?) - well according to this article the original filter found on the white face Odysseys opened to 35kHz!

Cool! Yes indeed, when you look at Mini emulations that close at 12kHz... not quite my experience.

I'm keeping my eyes open for an Odyssey. Haven't come across a good offer yet.

[olepro]

You can't either in a blind test...

Blind tests are often badly done. Take someone to a different environment than they're used to. Use different speakers than they're used to and then expect them to hear small differences. Whichever genius thinks this is a good way to determine things hasn't thought things through much.

I think a minimum starting point, for a really good blind test, would be to insist the person bring their own headphones (to remove room factors) and allow the listener to listen via something they're at least somewhat familiar with.

It hasn't to be that complicated at all.
I can post an example here and ask izonin what he hear and he cannot tell me 100% what is hardware or software.
If i post these examples 100 times his guess will be around 50% right...

Otherwise i think, with all his posts here he has brought him self out in the middle of the biggest ocean without a compass

That wouldn't work. I could just look at the waves in an oscilloscope... You can tell the difference by the way they are anti-aliased.

Do you make music with an oscilloscope

[hakey]

I'm keeping my eyes open for an Odyssey. Haven't come across a good offer yet.

You probably know this already, but due to a design miscalculation the filter on the later 2810-2813 models only opens to 12kHz.

[izonin]

You can't either in a blind test...

Blind tests are often badly done. Take someone to a different environment than they're used to. Use different speakers than they're used to and then expect them to hear small differences. Whichever genius thinks this is a good way to determine things hasn't thought things through much.

I think a minimum starting point, for a really good blind test, would be to insist the person bring their own headphones (to remove room factors) and allow the listener to listen via something they're at least somewhat familiar with.

It hasn't to be that complicated at all.
I can post an example here and ask izonin what he hear and he cannot tell me 100% what is hardware or software.
If i post these examples 100 times his guess will be around 50% right...

Otherwise i think, with all his posts here he has brought him self out in the middle of the biggest ocean without a compass

That wouldn't work. I could just look at the waves in an oscilloscope... You can tell the difference by the way they are anti-aliased.

Do you make music with an oscilloscope

Forget about the oscillators, it's the filters! The filters in those emulations don't sound right. They sound... cheap. Flat, lifeless, boring.
I like the lowpass in NeonHR a lot. It reminds me of the filter in the first analogue I got when I was six. When emulations can provide that sound quality, I'll be interested.

[himalaya]

It reminds me of the filter in the first analogue I got when I was six.

Pffft...when you were six... My Mum used to play me lullabies on a Moog 35 modular when I was still in her womb. She bought it by mistake thinking it was a cupboard. So I had good training from, well, before birth. So when I say 'analogue', that's what it is!

[Paggos]

I personally think any sound that sounds good to your ears is a good sound, no matter how good the 'emulation' is, you can craft your own sound similar, but different at the same time.

[Lotuzia]

I'm keeping my eyes open for an Odyssey. Haven't come across a good offer yet.

Sorry Urs I dont sell mine ( What a snobb I am )

[trimph1]

I'm keeping my eyes open for an Odyssey. Haven't come across a good offer yet.

Sorry Urs I dont sell mine ( What a snobb I am )

Nor the one I bought recently either!