KVR Audio

thebaggytrouseredone · Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:42 pm

I've saw middle C referenced in different articles and software as C3 and others as C4, which is right?

simon

Meffy · Post by **Meffy** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:08 pm

Both. The MIDI standard doesn't specify which note number corresponds to middle C. Seems odd to me but that's how it is.

Gamma-UT · Post by **Gamma-UT** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:10 pm

Both. Neither.

This stems from the different numbering schemes that some of the MIDI hardware makers picked in the early days - I think Roland picked one and Yamaha the other.

thebaggytrouseredone · Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:19 pm

This is very confusing lol. I'm looking to do design work in Alchemy and I think Camel Audio tutorials refere to middle C as C3, so if I'm editing pitch in Cubase I should use middle C as C3?

If a guitar is 2 octaves below middle C then it's lowest note would be E1, and B0 for a 7 string guitar?

If a bass is 3 octaves below middle C then it's lowest note would be E0, and B-1 for a 5 string bass?

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:33 pm

thebaggytrouseredone wrote:This is very confusing lol. I'm looking to do design work in Alchemy and I think Camel Audio tutorials refere to middle C as C3, so if I'm editing pitch in Cubase I should use middle C as C3?

If a guitar is 2 octaves below middle C then it's lowest note would be E1, and B0 for a 7 string guitar?

Yes.

Cubase takes C3 as middle C. Guitar is a transposing instrument in written music. EG: middle C on a guitar is the first fret on the B string/second string, but it's written an octave higher than that. The open big E string/6th string is E1 to Cubase.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:01 pm

the thing you may run into if you use sample libraries for bass is they might transpose differently. Bass is like the guitar, a transposing instrument written an octave higher than it sounds. Sometimes this isn't followed by a developer.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:05 pm

Roland took C4, Yamaha C3. In some cases it's C5.

thebaggytrouseredone · Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:26 pm

jancivil wrote:the thing you may run into if you use sample libraries for bass is they might transpose differently. Bass is like the guitar, a transposing instrument written an octave higher than it sounds. Sometimes this isn't followed by a developer.

Thank you, that's what I thought. Personally I don't like having octave transposition or any any transposition when I'm composing, I like working with actual pitch. I'm a guitarist and bassist myself so I understand how they are written but I find it gets confusing when writing. It's strange with synth presets in different octaves as well.

I'm just trying to design my own sample sets and just wanted to know best practice, but I guess I'll play it by ear and see what happens.

I sampled a few notes of my Korg monotron and loaded them into alchemy, great sound and great synth.

Simon

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:26 am

yeah, I hear you. When I wrote on paper I wrote at pitch always. Except if I was writing for guitar, which is the one instrument I've done a lot of reading from, I tranposed automatically. I knew a conducting major that could go back and forth naturually like that with the 'key' tranpositions; from the dual vantage point of french horn and piano. that's part of their training but I didn't go very far with that aspect.

The Chubu · Post by **The Chubu** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:12 am

The C most close to the midle of your piano/piano roll/keyboard lol

jedbeetle · Post by **jedbeetle** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:33 pm

So...does Cubase or Logic transpose bass instruments down an octave from what is written in the piano roll? I've been working with different softwares and occasionally run into an issue where bass and guitar exported from cubase or logic wind up sounding an octave higher than they should, whereas the cubase version (using GM patches on a sound card, or other instruments) sounds in the correct range. If the cubase/logic version sounds an octave too low, then the export sounds in the correct range. Can somebody clarify what is going on? Is there a standard octave transposition for these instruments in DAWs, or is it entirely dependent on the instrument/module/synth receiving the midi data?

Meffy · Post by **Meffy** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:38 pm

Welcome to KVR, Jed.

jedbeetle wrote:Is there a standard octave transposition for these instruments in DAWs, or is it entirely dependent on the instrument/module/synth receiving the midi data?

In my experience, I think it's the latter. Sometimes I have to shift my keyboard toward low notes to play basses, sometimes the low notes are transposed so they're right there in the usual melodic range.

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:55 pm

It really is just a matter of -labelling-. Middle C is always the same note, "MIDI" note 60, and will always arrive as such to plugins. It's just the label on the sequencer or plugin that will vary from C3 to C5.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:49 pm

jedbeetle wrote:So...does Cubase or Logic transpose bass instruments down an octave from what is written in the piano roll?

No. What can happen is... I'll give a concrete example: I did a thing with Scarbee Pre bass and OTS Jaco Iconic. For the same pitch Scarbee Pre was an octave lower in the piano roll. Which is to say at pitch, while Greg followed written convention. To avoid ledger lines on a stave of music paper convention has a clef for that, with a sign indicating it's written an octave higher than sounds.

jedbeetle · Post by **jedbeetle** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:57 pm

jancivil wrote:To avoid ledger lines on a stave of music paper convention has a clef for that, with a sign indicating it's written an octave higher than sounds.

Yes, there is an "8" underneath the treble clef. My concern is moving from one piece of software to another piece of software strictly, eschewing notation completely.