u-He Zebra II Vs Arturia Complete (Analog)

[fmr]

I was reading my copy of the user manual of the Matrix-12 (yes I kept it until today, even if I don't own one). Actually, the modulations in the Matrix-12 are more than 20, because there were 8 hardwired modulation routings, one of them being FM (which can or not be activated). FM is possible with VCO1 or VCF as destinys.
The Lag generator is very useful for softening modulations.
The LFOs are absolutely amazing (e.g. they have a special mode called SAMPLE where they sample another modulation source and use it as their own waveform).
The circuit can have VCAs before the filter AND after the filter, mixing both sounds.
The filter has 15 (yes - fifteen) modes, as I said, between them a 3 pole phase (hard to explain, and I no longer remember how it sounded, but it was weird) AND four combination modes (2 high + 1 Low; 3 High + 1 Low; 2 Notch + 1 Low; 3 Phase + 1 Low). This filter is something unique, and I don't know ANY soft synth that has something alike. It may not be the most resonant/phat filter, but is is unique. Of course we can combine several filters, and achieve something near, but it will be painful and a hardtime job if we try to recreate all the myriad of possibilities offered by this amazing synth engine.

[Bronto Scorpio]

I was reading my copy of the user manual of the Matrix-12 (yes I kept it until today, even if I don't own one). Actually, the modulations in the Matrix-12 are more than 20, because there were 8 hardwired modulation routings, one of them being FM (which can or not be activated). FM is possible with VCO1 or VCF as destinys.
The Lag generator is very useful for softening modulations.
The LFOs are absolutely amazing (e.g. they have a special mode called SAMPLE where they sample another modulation source and use it as their own waveform).
The circuit can have VCAs before the filter AND after the filter, mixing both sounds.
The filter has 15 (yes - fifteen) modes, as I said, between them a 3 pole phase (hard to explain, and I no longer remember how it sounded, but it was weird) AND four combination modes (2 high + 1 Low; 3 High + 1 Low; 2 Notch + 1 Low; 3 Phase + 1 Low). This filter is something unique, and I don't know ANY soft synth that has something alike. It may not be the most resonant/phat filter, but is is unique. Of course we can combine several filters, and achieve something near, but it will be painful and a hardtime job if we try to recreate all the myriad of possibilities offered by this amazing synth engine.

Zebra has EXACTLY that filter (the XMF)
The sound is a bit tweaked because Urs didn't like the original Matrix filter though. But it uses the same "Filter combination" technique to get the 15 Filter modes

Cheers
Dennis

[fmr]

I was reading my copy of the user manual of the Matrix-12 (yes I kept it until today, even if I don't own one). Actually, the modulations in the Matrix-12 are more than 20, because there were 8 hardwired modulation routings, one of them being FM (which can or not be activated). FM is possible with VCO1 or VCF as destinys.
The Lag generator is very useful for softening modulations.
The LFOs are absolutely amazing (e.g. they have a special mode called SAMPLE where they sample another modulation source and use it as their own waveform).
The circuit can have VCAs before the filter AND after the filter, mixing both sounds.
The filter has 15 (yes - fifteen) modes, as I said, between them a 3 pole phase (hard to explain, and I no longer remember how it sounded, but it was weird) AND four combination modes (2 high + 1 Low; 3 High + 1 Low; 2 Notch + 1 Low; 3 Phase + 1 Low). This filter is something unique, and I don't know ANY soft synth that has something alike. It may not be the most resonant/phat filter, but is is unique. Of course we can combine several filters, and achieve something near, but it will be painful and a hardtime job if we try to recreate all the myriad of possibilities offered by this amazing synth engine.

Zebra has EXACTLY that filter (the XMF)
The sound is a bit tweaked because Urs didn't like the original Matrix filter though. But it uses the same "Filter combination" technique to get the 15 Filter modes

Cheers
Dennis

As I said, I no longer have access to a Matrix-12, but from what I remember, and for what I know of the XMF (I can't say much) they don't seem very close. As a matter of fact, besides the detail of both having "combinations" they are not close at all, IMO. Don't take me wrong - I love Zebra, and I am an early adopter (was among the first ones to get Zebra, as Urs know). I simply don't agree that it can replace or emulate the Matrix-12 - too different workflows.
Is like someone say that Cubase can emulate Logic, or Pro Tools or wj«hatever (actually, I think these can be closer). They can, if we talk largely, but when we get down to the details, they are completely different things.

[pdxindy]

I was reading my copy of the user manual of the Matrix-12 (yes I kept it until today, even if I don't own one). Actually, the modulations in the Matrix-12 are more than 20, because there were 8 hardwired modulation routings, one of them being FM (which can or not be activated). FM is possible with VCO1 or VCF as destinys.
The Lag generator is very useful for softening modulations.
The LFOs are absolutely amazing (e.g. they have a special mode called SAMPLE where they sample another modulation source and use it as their own waveform).
The circuit can have VCAs before the filter AND after the filter, mixing both sounds.
The filter has 15 (yes - fifteen) modes, as I said, between them a 3 pole phase (hard to explain, and I no longer remember how it sounded, but it was weird) AND four combination modes (2 high + 1 Low; 3 High + 1 Low; 2 Notch + 1 Low; 3 Phase + 1 Low). This filter is something unique, and I don't know ANY soft synth that has something alike. It may not be the most resonant/phat filter, but is is unique. Of course we can combine several filters, and achieve something near, but it will be painful and a hardtime job if we try to recreate all the myriad of possibilities offered by this amazing synth engine.

Zebra has EXACTLY that filter (the XMF)
The sound is a bit tweaked because Urs didn't like the original Matrix filter though. But it uses the same "Filter combination" technique to get the 15 Filter modes

Cheers
Dennis

As I said, I no longer have access to a Matrix-12, but from what I remember, and for what I know of the XMF (I can't say much) they don't seem very close. As a matter of fact, besides the detail of both having "combinations" they are not close at all, IMO. Don't take me wrong - I love Zebra, and I am an early adopter (was among the first ones to get Zebra, as Urs know). I simply don't agree that it can replace or emulate the Matrix-12 - too different workflows.
Is like someone say that Cubase can emulate Logic, or Pro Tools or wj«hatever (actually, I think these can be closer). They can, if we talk largely, but when we get down to the details, they are completely different things.

quoted from Urs

"If you need a serious filter *now*, check out the XMF-module in Zebrify. It's component modelled after a very similar structure as the SSM2044 and offers a wide range of character and features (e.g. all filter modes of the Xpander/Matrix 12, and optionally two of those in series/parallel while maintaining stereo operation) "

[fmr]

quoted from Urs

"If you need a serious filter *now*, check out the XMF-module in Zebrify. It's component modelled after a very similar structure as the SSM2044 and offers a wide range of character and features (e.g. all filter modes of the Xpander/Matrix 12, and optionally two of those in series/parallel while maintaining stereo operation) "

I will left the detailed explanation to Urs himself, but you can check the manual yourself, see my explanation, and make your own conclusions. The Matrix-12 has 15 modes. The XMF has 15 modes. There are modes in XMF that are not in Matrix-12, so...

And, as in your quote "very similar structure". Not "the same" structure. And it's the SSM2044, not the SSM2044 as implemented in the Matrix-12 (actually CEM3372 VCF chip - see my next post). This chip was probably used in other synths, but I bet they didn't sound like the Matrix-12 (perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me can enlighten us about this).

Again, I am recalling a long time ago, when I used the Matrix-12. Memory plays tricks on us, and the XMF may, eventually. be closer than I think. But Urs didn't had access to a Matrix-12 except a broken one, as he told us, so, even him cannot say if its close or not. Hopefully, he will be able to do it soon

[fmr]

According to http://www.emulatorarchive.com/Modules/ ... m3372.html the filter chip featured in the Matrix-12 is the CEM3372 VCF chip

Other synths that use this: Yamaha AX80 (go figure), Prophet Six-Trax, Prophet VS, Simmons SDS8, Prophet T8, Prophet 600, Chroma Polaris. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_CEM). Strangely, the Xpander is referenced as using both CEM3372 Filter/Mix/VCA and CEM3320 VCF or equivalent (???).

[kv331]

What's really missing could be lag generators and S&H in LFOs.
Ingo

If you mean the LFOs in SynthMaster, by turning on the "Randomize" parameter you can randomize the steps of a step/glide LFO. So S&H LFOs indeed exists in SynthMaster!

[Sendy]

TB

[Gonga]

I've always very much liked at least some of the sounds from every CS-80 emulation I've ever tried. I think that says more about the CS-80 than the emulations though.

That's an interesting observation, Gonga! Synth architecture and waveform selection-are those the principal attributes that define the cs-80 sound?

Yes, at least I think so! I don't know that much about the CS-80, except that it was quite unique in its layering of various types of sound generators, and in the way it excelled as a performance instrument in terms of splits, aftertouch implementation, etc. Many great musicians have said something to the effect that siting there at the thing and playing was akin to a religious experience for a player. My self, I always find some very rich and musical brass and string sounds with the emulations I've demoed.

[Gonga]

Late 70's early 80's were very ambitious years for Yamaha. The cs series, the gs1 and 2, the mass marketed dx-7 with it's 32 algorithms and midi...of course: we got tired of the sound (12 bit converters didn't help!) But digital proved itself to provide a wider range of sounds then analog. Or different. But We've almost come full circle, haven't we?

So much so that I recently purchased a Yamaha TX-802 just so I could have a brighter-sounding, more authentic FM than I seem to get with FM8 (which I love). I decided I needed to get closer to Jan Hammer's 80's sounds than I've been able to get with FM8, and I'm planning on doing some 80s-inspired stuff next year after I do a couple other projects first.

[Gonga]

We now have access to tools like the great Zebra that can provide us with a quadrillion sonic permutations, but we STILL want that 'analog' sound. I was the first kid on my block with a dx-7 (actually:2) and I spent hours and hours coaxing filter sweeps out of it. Instead of the perfect piano, or trombone.

So our friend Urs stays up late at night building the next-gen virtual analog, because we need that sound. That SOUND. No:playing Zebra is just not good enough. Maybe it's just me, but I wonder sometimes if we aren't in some small way collectively slightly delusional.

I was playing my Triton extreme loaded with the First Call keyboard collection-a mixture of Synth and Hammond samples; I was ALMOST tempted to play our now ubiquitious game of: 'guess the synth' would it have been obvious that the minimoog sound was just a sample played on a keyboard? There are probably some of you guys that would have caught it right away, but I doubt that I have caught it immediately. Not as versatile as a vst by any means, but the sound is there.

Hehe - I remember being miffed when I found that I couldn't do a filter sweep with the shiny new Alesis QS8 workstation

We are indeed delusional. We are addicted to the purest most pristine analog sound, and are afraid to lose it I think (which apparently will not happen anytime soon).

Well I think sampled sounds can be great, and I used a sampled mini for bass on a track not long ago. But my obsession with controllers is equal to that for analog, and I have to be able to alter the sound continuously, hence I was always exasperated by the zipping an screeching I got from my older VAs, including the MOSS board in my Extreme

For me, Zebra totally put my mind at ease in that I now felt that I could get 99% of the sounds that I was addicted to and could alter and control them any way I liked without worrying about nasty artifacts. Zebra was an epiphany.

And we'll see, but the new tech in Diva is promising. I wonder whether the attack will be different than Zebra?

I question whether the simpler architecture can produce an attack as "authentic" as Zebra actually.

[goldenanalog]

So much so that I recently purchased a Yamaha TX-802 just so I could have a brighter-sounding, more authentic FM than I seem to get with FM8 (which I love). I decided I needed to get closer to Jan Hammer's 80's sounds than I've been able to get with FM8, and I'm planning on doing some 80s-inspired stuff next year after I do a couple other projects first.

That brings back a load of great memories, Gonga! To this day: I've always wanted a Kawai K5m (additive synth), but never got around to buying it (I believe that was part of Jan Hammer's sound, but I could be wrong-this was a was long, long, ago) I believe that Jan used that, and a Fairlight Series III for his work with Michael Mann/Miami Vice-I don't remember what else. Of course: Tangerine Dream was first choice for the series, but They wouldn't commit.

OK: I STILL have several TX-802's (bought new)-finest FM synth ever? (maybe SY-77 instead-more vaveforms to choose from, but the EFX lacks) 'Inside' rumor had it back in the day that Yamaha was going to introduce a DX-7 III, but it was scrapped-SY-85/99 instead? (Please feel free to correct).

I used to have a pristine TX-816-literally 8-DX-7's sans keys in a rack, but the 16-bit version of that architecture just sounded so much better! Bye 816, hello 802.

[goldenanalog]

For me, Zebra totally put my mind at ease in that I now felt that I could get 99% of the sounds that I was addicted to and could alter and control them any way I liked without worrying about nasty artifacts. Zebra was an epiphany.

I have soooo many plug-ins as it is, gonga, that Zebra would probably be wasted on me (in addition to sh*tloads of hardware). But like everyone else here: I love Urs, so I'll probably buy *at least* DIVA (yeah, I'm excited, too...)

I guess that overall, FM is easy for a soft synth (it was the first digital synthesis platform to achieve wide-spread acceptance, correct?)

At the other extreme (and THANKS so much, guys, for a great education on this!) perhaps sits the matrix-12!)

[Gonga]

Arturia's VA's are mediocre to plain at best. Zebra's always had a lot of potential in terms of sculpting its Osc's, but even with the updates, I've never appreciated it's filters. Maybe if it had ACE's filters, I'd think differently, but it doesn't.

I'm probably going to be lynched by the Zebra mob again for giving my honest opinion, but let those with ears -listen-.

With synths like Sylenth1, DCAM, Imposcar2, Minimossta, Korg Legacy, XILS 3, Polykb, Largo, Omnisphere, Harmor, Alchemy, etc , I've never quite understood the hype surrounding Zebra, and it's 'untouchable' status on KVR.

It's great in theory, looks great, lets you modulate more than you can dream of, but then ends up sounding thin and hollow.

I guess one mans 'neutral' is another mans bland.

In terms of features, but above all, sonically, I much prefer http://straightarrow.dk/quiver/. While it's just been released recently, it shows a lot of potential, and sounds extremely nice, with filters that sculpt the timbre of a sound beautifully and richly.

Remember, this is just my opinion, I don't mean to start a holy war, for as much praise as Zebra gets, it should also be willing to receive some criticism.

I respect your bravado and honesty. You've listed some great synths sonically-speaking. And each musician will refer to different reasons as to why they have gravitated to their favorite synths. I'm only familiar with two of those you mentioned (familiar enough to have a worthwhile opinion) and that's Minimonsta and Omnisphere. Neither of these synths has any kind of attack envelope that can come anywhere near Zebra. The attack is not opinion, that's easily established physics (though I do not possess the equipment to measure it other than my ears). One of my great disappointments with Omnisphere is how it has the same wimpy attack as 95% of the other VAs out there - nothing like any of the famous monophonic analogs of yore. As you bring down the sustain on the Amp ADSR you just lower the volume - very non-analog behavior (I can say the same for ACE btw - I am not a U-He fanboy - just a huge fan for good reason). Zebra has an attack that will blast your headphones off.

[goldenanalog]

I wonder whether the attack will be different than Zebra?

Urs?