u-He Zebra II Vs Arturia Complete (Analog)

[Gonga]

That brings back a load of great memories, Gonga! To this day: I've always wanted a Kawai K5m (additive synth), but never got around to buying it (I believe that was part of Jan Hammer's sound, but I could be wrong-this was a was long, long, ago) I believe that Jan used that, and a Fairlight Series III for his work with Michael Mann/Miami Vice-I don't remember what else. Of course: Tangerine Dream was first choice for the series, but They wouldn't commit.

OK: I STILL have several TX-802's (bought new)-finest FM synth ever? (maybe SY-77 instead-more vaveforms to choose from, but the EFX lacks) 'Inside' rumor had it back in the day that Yamaha was going to introduce a DX-7 III, but it was scrapped-SY-85/99 instead? (Please feel free to correct).

I used to have a pristine TX-816-literally 8-DX-7's sans keys in a rack, but the 16-bit version of that architecture just sounded so much better! Bye 816, hello 802.

Very cool. You obviously know much more about this than I do. I was so into analog in the 70s in fact that I completely skipped over FM, and only now have a TX-802. Well, truth is I went to university, became a geologist, yadayadayada and spent quite a few years not doing much music at all

I know Jan had an expensive Kawai but I don't know which model. There are guys over at http://www.jan-hammer.net who could tell you though

[goldenanalog]

Very cool. You obviously know much more about this than I do. I was so into analog in the 70s in fact that I completely skipped over FM, and only now have a TX-802. Well, truth is I went to university, became a geologist, yadayadayada and spent quite a few years not doing much music at all

But, Gonga, now you get to experience the joy of discovery! And it also sounds like you've already done quite a bit with your life...OTOH, I suffer from an adult form of 'arrested developement'; I fully admit to being obsessed (addicted) to keyboards-primarily synthesizers-in all their many forms (soft, hard, doesn't matter), and to performing in front of people, for decades now (with no end in sight!)

[Ingonator]

What's really missing could be lag generators and S&H in LFOs.
Ingo

If you mean the LFOs in SynthMaster, by turning on the "Randomize" parameter you can randomize the steps of a step/glide LFO. So S&H LFOs indeed exists in SynthMaster!

Hi Bulent,

thanks for the hint. Looks like almost everything is possible with Synthmaster.

Recently i was searching for the S&H in my Moog Slim Phatty and it's available in the menu. You could switch one of the original mod sources to S&H.

Based on this discussion maybe in Synthmaster 3.0 you could include an Oberheim filter, maybe a Matrix 12 (or Xpander) one...


Ingo

[Ingonator]

I was reading my copy of the user manual of the Matrix-12 (yes I kept it until today, even if I don't own one). Actually, the modulations in the Matrix-12 are more than 20, because there were 8 hardwired modulation routings, one of them being FM (which can or not be activated). FM is possible with VCO1 or VCF as destinys.
The Lag generator is very useful for softening modulations.
The LFOs are absolutely amazing (e.g. they have a special mode called SAMPLE where they sample another modulation source and use it as their own waveform).
The circuit can have VCAs before the filter AND after the filter, mixing both sounds.
The filter has 15 (yes - fifteen) modes, as I said, between them a 3 pole phase (hard to explain, and I no longer remember how it sounded, but it was weird) AND four combination modes (2 high + 1 Low; 3 High + 1 Low; 2 Notch + 1 Low; 3 Phase + 1 Low). This filter is something unique, and I don't know ANY soft synth that has something alike. It may not be the most resonant/phat filter, but is is unique. Of course we can combine several filters, and achieve something near, but it will be painful and a hardtime job if we try to recreate all the myriad of possibilities offered by this amazing synth engine.

Just found a link where the manuals are available:
http://cyborgstudio.com/matrix12.html

A quote from the Specs sheet:

"Voice architecture:
2 Voltage Controlled Oscillators ("VCOs")
1 15-Mode Voltage Controlled Filter V&)
15 Voltage Controlled Amplifiers ("VCAs"))
1 FM Modulation Generator
1 Lag Processor
3 Tracking Generators
5 Digital Envelopes
5 Digital Low Frequency Oscillators ("LFOs")
4 Ramp Generators
1 Noise Generator

Modulation:
Matrix ModulationTM System utilizing 27 possible Sources routed
to 47 possible Destinations in up to 20 "Modulation Pages" per Voice.
12 Permanent ("hardwired") modulations per Voice."

Here is a list of the Matrix 12 filter modes from the manual:
LP1, LP2, LP3, LP4, HP1, HP2, HP3, BP2, BP4, BR2, 3-Pole Phase Shift (="Allpass" filter), HP2 + LP1, HP3 + LP1, BR2 + LP1, 3-pole Phase Shift ("Allpass") + LP1

The Phase Shift filter seems to be an "Allpass" filter which changes the Phase of the incoming signal. The Cutoff frequency is the control for the phase shift.

-------------------------------------------------

- Here is a list of the XMF modes in Zebra 2.5:
LP1, LP2, LP3, LP4, HP1, HP2, HP3, BP2, BP4, BR2, AP3 (="Allpass" filter), HP2 + LP, HP3 + LP, BR2 + LP, AP3 ("Allpass") + LP

At least from the names those are identical to the Matrix 12 but as someone mentioned they maybe don't sound identical.

Here is a video about the XMf filter:


-------------------------------------------------

- FXpansion Strobe was mentioned here. Comparable models are:
L2, L4, H2, H4, B2, B2, B4, N2, N4, P2, N2L2 T

- filter modes in FXpansion Cypher:
L2, L4, H2, H4, B2, B2, B4, N4, P4
Combinations are possible with the second filter.

- Comparable models on Alchemy (AFAIK the XP models are Oberheim models):
LP2-XP, LP4-XP, HP2-XP, HP4-XP, BP2-XP, BP4-XP, Notch, Peaking
Combinations are possible with the second filter.

-----------------------------------------------------

As i already mentioned it here is a detailed description of the Synthmaster 2.5 analog filters (from the manual):

"Analog filters are modeled after the famous ladder filter. They have continuously variable slope, unlike the digital filters with fixed slope. At high resonance values, the filters self-oscillate:
- Lowpass (0-24 db/oct slope)
- HighPass (0-24 db/oct slope),
- LowShelve (0-24 db/oct slope)
- HighShelve (0-24 db/oct slope)
- BandPass (0-12 db/oct slope)
- BandStop/Notch (0-12 db/oct slope)
- Peaking (0-12 db/oct slope)
- MultiMode (0-24 db/oct slope, mode sweepable between lowpass/bandpass/highpass)
- Dual (0-24 db/oct slope, parallel/series combination of 2 analog MultiMode filters)"

Combinations are possible with the Dual mode or the second filter.

Synthmaster could also reproduce most of the LFO features from the Matrix 12 (check the manual of the Matrix 12 at the link above for details).
Synthmasters LFOs got Sine, Triangle, Saw, Square, Step and glide modes plus Noise. With the "Random" feature in the Step mode it could produce a S&H like result. The LFOs got a AR envelope which could correspond to the lag processor in the MAtrix 12 LFOs. As the Retrigger mode Synthmaster could use the "Free" switch and you could set the Phase of the waveform.
The "Sample" mode of the Matrix 12 LFOs could be maybe reproduced with using one of the modulation Oscs as an LFO.

Conclusion:
From all synths i got only Synthmaster 2.5 seems to be able to reproduce mosrt of the features of the Matrix 12. Zebra 2.5 should do it to but currently i don't own it anymore (which maybe changes in the future...).

Others could be Modulars like e.g. Sonigen Modular or VAZ Modular 3.

Like i already mentioned the biggest problem is to get a proper reprduction if the very complex Matrix 12 filter.


Ingo

[Urs]

I wonder whether the attack will be different than Zebra?

Urs?

Completely different algorithms. The ADS envelope with A, D set to 0 and Sustain set to taste should bring back some memories though

[Gonga]

I wonder whether the attack will be different than Zebra?

Urs?

Completely different algorithms. The ADS envelope with A, D set to 0 and Sustain set to taste should bring back some memories though

[Uncle E]

I've always wanted a Kawai K5m (additive synth)

The K5000 was lovely, too. I can't get those sounds with Alchemy for some reason.

OK: I STILL have several TX-802's (bought new)-finest FM synth ever?

Alright, now I've got to get one to stick between my TX81Z and FS1R.

[ryandfl]

Here is a video about the XMf filter:

Ingo

That sounds so good. Nice reminder that many of the best Zebra patches are really simple, despite the ability to modulate thing like mad.

[PAK]

Klaus Piehl is VERY VERY High-Level and a true demon in his field. He coded all the great SCOPE synths (Minimax, Pro-12, Pro One, etc)

Thanks for putting a name to it all. Though, where his name is mentioned, it seems like the name "Matthias Klag" usually isn't far behind? I figured there would be some connection to John Bowens' hardware Solaris synth..

Just a shame they haven't been seen more on the native side of things, though a search shows they were both involved with the "AIR" engine for Wizoo. That, and perhaps a low awareness of Creamware etc (at least outside of Germany), means perhaps they haven't had a level of general recognition they perhaps deserved (By "general recognition" I mean people outside of places like KVR or who generally take a greater interest in these sorts of things).

If, when Minimax was launched, someone said we'd still be waiting on a better native Minimoog emulation, in 2011, then I wouldn't have believed you.

[goldenanalog]

Alright, now I've got to get one to stick between my TX81Z and FS1R.

It will have the true dx-7 character, but it's a fair argument that although Yamaha somewhat 'strayed' away from their fm only tx/dx paradigm in their sy-77 tg-77 sy-99 offerings, the later guys. are superior due to both sonic improvements, and an expanded architecture. Where it all breaks down is the # of parameters, and the parameter management itself-larger screens and a greater number of physical controls help, but when you are faced with so many choices...this is where we live now in a luxurious world-remember how limited the dx-7 was as far as it's programming UI-it's a cruel joke by today's standards.

Anyway: Where I found the TX-802 sounded best was: 1.) Midi to an analog Synth like the memorymoog, or2.) Stacked sonically with it's brethren (that's why I have several)

Remember that FM is somewhat cryptic, so the best advice I could give to anyone going the FM hardware route is to have say: NI'S FM-8 as a reference.

Edited for clarity/redundancy

[pdxindy]

If, when Minimax was launched, someone said we'd still be waiting on a better native Minimoog emulation, in 2011, then I wouldn't have believed you.

I'll be interested to hear peoples impressions of Diva when the beta comes out. Diva sounds remarkably good... very alive, smooth, snarly, etc. I've never played the original so I have no idea as to sonic accuracy to the Minimoog, but at the least I am confident Diva will turn some heads just in its own right.

[Syncretia]

I accept the basic argument that Arturia is overhyping its technology. This may or may not be the case. My ears aren't sharp enough to tell and I don't have access to their code.

But, if that's the case, then I'd like to know where the state of VA is up to. Is there really such a thing as "Analog Modelling Synthesis" as the Wikipedia article describes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_mod ... ynthesizer

Modern computers would be fast enough to model actual circuitry these days. They might struggle but it would be possible. The thing is now, what's being argued by people here is that Minmoog V is nothing more than a plain old digital subtractive synth which simply has a bunch of presets that sound along the lines of the real Minimoog. I don't really have any way of determining the veracity of this claim.

Anyway, I can probably answer my original question now. Zebra is basically a more flexible synth and has some good sounds which sound like analog. But, Minimoog V has its place as well. It is based on an instrument which has very common sounds and from a personal point of view - are recognisable and that is why I like it so much. It doesn't seem to be the be all and end all of analog synths so the Arturia Complete package is probably not worth investing in. The answer is probably that neither Zebra II, nor Arturia's Complete package will give anyone all the answers to analog. But pieces of both might give someone enough to work with depending on their requirements.

[Ingonator]

It doesn't seem to be the be all and end all of analog synths so the Arturia Complete package is probably not worth investing in. The answer is probably that neither Zebra II, nor Arturia's Complete package will give anyone all the answers to analog. But pieces of both might give someone enough to work with depending on their requirements.

You could have a look into the Xils synths, especially Synthix. Maybe you'll discover a difference...
It could be also a good idea to have a look at FXpansion Synth Squad, Way Out Ware TimewARP2600, Sonicprojects OP-X Pro II or Sonigen Modular. Not to forget ImpOSCar 2 of course.


Ingo

[Syncretia]

I did it here already, 2 posts up.

Thanks. Very nice patches. It would be nice if Zebra came with a whole section of analog sounds, or had a separate download for a bunch of analog sounds. The problem right now for me is that it's not immediately apparent which sounds are mean to sound like analog and which ones aren't.

[pdxindy]

Anyway, I can probably answer my original question now. Zebra is basically a more flexible synth and has some good sounds which sound like analog. But, Minimoog V has its place as well. It is based on an instrument which has very common sounds and from a personal point of view - are recognisable and that is why I like it so much. It doesn't seem to be the be all and end all of analog synths so the Arturia Complete package is probably not worth investing in. The answer is probably that neither Zebra II, nor Arturia's Complete package will give anyone all the answers to analog. But pieces of both might give someone enough to work with depending on their requirements.

The Diva beta will be out in a day or so. If you want a state of the art Minimoog replica, try that. The sound is exceptional. I have never played an actual Minimoog so I cannot make any direct comparison, but the sound is coherent, creamy, snarly, smooth, deep rich and effortless. It has characteristics I associate with analog in abundance.

The last few pages of the Diva thread in the U-he forum have a bunch of first impression sound demos from the beta testers

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0