KVR Audio

dickiefunk · Post by **dickiefunk** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:22 am

Hi,

I'm currently in the middle of a big band arrangement and am using the brass samples that come with NI Kontakt 4.

These are ok sounding but I would like something that sounds a little more realistic with lots of articulations, and be very easy and intuitive to use! I don't need muted brass for the current arrangement I'm doing but would be something I would need later!?

After doing some looking around the following look to be the best options :-

1, Vir2 Mojo
2, Samplemodeling BigBand
3, Chris Hein volume 1 or 2
4, Garritan Jazz and Big Band?

After listening to the demos of the various products the Mojo and the Samplemodeling stuff sound the most realistic with the Chris Hein coming next.

Which of these would sound best for a crooning type of Big Band? Also, which of these is easiest and quickest to use?

chroma · Post by **chroma** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:55 pm

the new chris hein compact is pretty cheap (~$200) and includes something like 53 solo instruments:

not that i really have an opinion, not having tried any of the above...
you could take a look at wivi band (at $150) or wivi orchestral and band brass (at $499?) if you need more control... i think it sounds pretty good, remember to use the mod wheel...

incidentally... the kontakt stuff is apparently an older version of a chris hein library (if you use the band brass... the orchestral brass is VSL)...

chroma · Post by **chroma** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:04 pm

btw, this is what wivi sounds like (from demos):

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:10 pm

http://www.warpivmusic.com/

these are seriously rich with articulations. they do not lack in realism in the least.

My experience with samplemodeling is that you build the performance yourself via controllers rather than a set of articulations per se. that wasn't suitable for making quick work for me, YMMV.

highkoo · Post by **highkoo** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:19 pm

I guess I am no expert on the genre, but I recall hearing some snappy stuff in this library-
http://www.bigfishaudio.com/detail.html?721

Ben H · Post by **Ben H** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:27 am

I have all the Samplemodeling stuff, and they really are unparalleled in terms of realism and playability. As a 10+ years sax player, I can finally say that I had found a sax set that I am happy with, and that doesn't make me cringe each time I listen.

The Chris Hein Horns are also very good. Lots of articulations to use, which is both a plus and a minus. Careful attention is obviously needed to string the articulations together, but you can get a very good performance from these. Chris has just recently released Chris Hein Horns Compact, which contains all the solo instruments from CHH Vols 1-4 (but not the section instruments). It features a new Kontakt GUI and scripting which apparentky makes playing these in real-time a lot easier without haveing to rely on keyswitches and such. I've not tried this myself yet, but for the 53 instruments you get, it is a real steal at that price.

Yes, the brass in Kontakt is from Chris Hein Horns, although Chris Hein Horns contains a lot more layers and articulations (obviously).

MOJO, I have tried but don't own. However, to my ears the brass sounds very weak and lacks punch and balls.

Garritan JABB is also very weak sounding to my ears, with a small sample set and very few articulations. I'm not sure if the newer ARIA version has improvbed things much, but I remember that the old Kompakt version was not that great. But even if they have improved the scripting, you just can't fix things when there is not enough sample material to begin with.

Even better than audio demos, you can actually try an online demo of Chris Hein Horns and MOJO for yourself at www.try-sound.com

Samplemodeling has no demo version unfortunately, but don't let that deter you, as it really is top notch stuff. You can also have a listen to their members compositions in their forums to get an idea of what other customers have been able to achieve.

Garritan doesn't have a demo version, but meh, I wouldn't really bother with it anyway.

noiseboyuk · Post by **noiseboyuk** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:13 am

Just realised you've missed an important one:

5 - Broadway Big Band Lites

http://fablesounds.com/B-Lites-about.html

It's £311 at the current exchange rate. I have the full BBB, and this is the vast majority of it (1 mic only, which is fine). It's far more realistic than CHH for me, although the trumpets lack a bit of bite. Definitely worth a look though - the full version is currently $2,200, and like I say this has you 90% there to be honest.

dickiefunk · Post by **dickiefunk** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:59 am

noiseboyuk wrote:Just realised you've missed an important one:

5 - Broadway Big Band Lites

http://fablesounds.com/B-Lites-about.html

It's £311 at the current exchange rate. I have the full BBB, and this is the vast majority of it (1 mic only, which is fine). It's far more realistic than CHH for me, although the trumpets lack a bit of bite. Definitely worth a look though - the full version is currently $2,200, and like I say this has you 90% there to be honest.

Thanks for the reply. This doesn't include all the mutes, players etc that I would like.

I'm currently torn between the Sample Modeling Big Band and Mojo.

Any thoughts on how easy these are to use?

Also, what mutes does Mojo include for the trumpets and trombones?

Ben H · Post by **Ben H** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:03 pm

Don't get MOJO, it sounds horrible. Trust me, you will be disappointed.

If you are still not convinced then at least make sure you try the full online demo version at www.try-sound.com first, before you buy it.

BTW you might want to take a listen to this Big Band user demo. All brass & saxes are Samplemodeling only.

dickiefunk · Post by **dickiefunk** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:12 pm

From listening to the demos of these both can sound good or bad depending on the users programming and arranging skills!?

The guys from sample modeling sent me this demo :-

http://soundcloud.com/saxer/printemps-bigband

This sounds great to my ears!!

My question is how easy and quick is the sample modeling stuff to use compared to Mojo?

Ben H · Post by **Ben H** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:23 pm

dickiefunk wrote:From listening to the demos of these both can sound good or bad depending on the users programming and arranging skills!?

The guys from sample modeling sent me this demo :-

http://soundcloud.com/saxer/printemps-bigband

This sounds great to my ears!!

My question is how easy and quick is the sample modeling stuff to use compared to Mojo?

Yup. That's the same demo that I also just linked.

The Samplemodeling stuff is very playable and expressive OOB.

It can take a bit longer if you are trying to use a keyboard rather than a breath or wind controller. But it's still very achievable to get a very convincing brass/big band sound. Even if you don't consider yourself to have great programming and arranging skills, you will still be able to get a decent performance from it with little effort.

As for Mojo, it's been a while since I have used it. But IIRC it has lots of articulations and keyswitches, which can be good or bad depending on how you prefer to work. I still don't think that Mojo will get you anywhere in the same ballpark as SM without a LOT of work, if at all. Like I said, it really lacks guts and oomph. Even driving it hard it still sounds wishy-washy and thin.

Samplemodeling has this punch, but it can also be tame and lyrical.

That's my 2c, so I'll let someone else chime in now.

benjamind · Post by **benjamind** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:10 pm

There are only 2 instruments that I can think of that would be most suitable for this.

Either Wallander Instruments (WIVI) or SampleModeling brass instruments (they also do saxes too).

These provide a seamless dynamic change that make them sound extremely realistic. If it were me I wouldn't be looking at anything else. Certainly not samples, they do not have the playability or dynamics of WIVI or SampleModeling instruments. While some sample libraries can sound very good, I don't think they are flexible, and because of that WIVI and SampleModeling come out on top. They don't take much space or CPU resources either. Samples take up lots of RAM, but WIVI takes up very little.

SampleModeling uses a special algorithm/technology that creates seamless dynamic changes, whereas WIVI uses another algorithm, but they both provide seamless playability.

dickiefunk · Post by **dickiefunk** » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:50 pm

I've done a little more listening and have decided to go with Mojo when I have the funds ( unless anyone is selling theirs ).

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:33 pm

the saxes, and anything with more higher resonance tham the 'bones, in Hein are not convincing. WarpIV, seriously, for big band, that's the main thrust of the libraries.

some of the instruments have better legato peformance instruments than others. then, it's a matter of choosing the right gesture by a keyswitch often enough but there are a hell of a lot to choose from. if the goal is classic big band writing, the gestures/articulations are made for that. I am more avant-garde and was able to pull of a soprano sax solo I would put against a real player without having to build the sound from controller lanes, the set of articulations wat so expansive for that one.

if you are a real power user in the piano roll, and particularly if you have a wind controller, Sample Modeling makes an excellent product, the sound is there. but the performance will be down to you rather than Eric Marienthal et al. People believe my charts are real horns with WarpIV.

also an independent developer, Jeff Steinman. a mensch, too.

Best Big Band vsti/samples around £400?