Low latency audio in Android 4 (Ice Cream Sandwich)

[justin3am]

He made no such announcement. Proof? Link?

http://moconews.net/article/419-apples- ... a-is-done/

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

Neither link contains a statement from Apple on the topic of discontinuing anything.

This is such a tired argument. Why can't you be okay with people liking what they like? Why does it make someone a 'fanboy' if they prefer one platform over another? Every time you post in a discussion like this, you just come across as a bully. It's a shame because I've seen you make some very insightful and intelligent comments in other discussions, so I know you are not a bully.

If people want to believe that Android is an unsuitable platform for audio apps... let them believe that. It has no impact on you... other than how angry it seems to make you.

[Leslie]

End of the world is upon us...

http://www.december2012endofworld.com/

.. Back to the topic...?

[polaris20]

Yep, it must be true, especially coming from such reputable websites what a joke lol
As I said, ignorance is bliss and it shows...

Steve says "post PC", this dosnt mean working alongside PC. from the horses mouth - twist that round if you can. Anyways Im derailing. End of.

You clearly have no idea what he's actually talking about. Again, as it stands now and in the near future, you cannot develop for iOS without a Mac.

Also, you point to a KVR thread speculating the discontinuation of the Mac Pro specifically, not the entire line. Also, from the other source:

Discussion of a "post-PC" doesn't mean that all of a sudden PCs suddenly vanish. Just like television didn't really "kill" radio, and like computers have yet to kill televisions, there's room for multiple devices in the average home or office and years of opportunity to make money off the PC.

And as Steve has said before, just as there were all trucks, and then eventually cars replaced trucks for many purposes, trucks still stayed around for awhile because they suit a purpose. This is the same for the desktop/laptop computer in comparison to tablets.

Source: D8 conference, look up the video.

And you're still trying to make this into some stupid "Android vs. iOS" debate, which it is not. It's whether or not mobile devices (smart phones/tablets) can be seriously used for audio production. They can. iOS does it, Android is a couple small steps from it. All that has to happen is A. Google fix the latency problem, and B. companies begin development.

[Leslie]

Chil out guys...
Ice cream sandwich did NOT fix the latency issue, but "milk shake" coming in 2025 will try to do it.

[APHELEON s.a.]

My milkshake brings all the Droids to the yard...

[Karmacomposer]

I'll post one last time in this thread due to some new purchases that are truly game changers.

On Android - not much going on - a few nice simple games. Continue to play angry birds and a really nice invoicing software for my business with signature and credit card capability.

On iPad - HOLY CRAP! Korg stuff is half off, so I bought iElectribe and Gorillaz iElectribe, Kaoss Pad and ims20 analog workstation.

Boy and girls, these apps are NOT toys. They are NOT angry birds or a new invoicing app. THEY ARE DAMN SERIOUS MUSIC-MAKING MUSCLE. I owned several drum machines that cost in the hundreds - and one over a thousand. I have ALWAYS wanted a hardware Electribe and played with one CONSTANTLY at Sam Ash - but could not afford it for whatever reason. Finally, I own a Kaossilator Pro. The Korg iPad versions of the Electribe and Kaossilator is not only SPOT ON, they are BETTER than the original in every way. Massively responsive, unbelievably fun to play and worth every penny. The ims20 is ridiculous. It is a analog piece of gear. It feels like a piece of hardware. So well done, I cannot even begin to tell you. THESE FEEL LIKE HARDWARE. That's right. Like Hardware - on an iPad.

Say what you will, but when I own four apps that feel and look like their hardware counterparts (well, the Gorillaz app looks demented, but sounds insane) - and those hardware counterparts total in the thousands - that I bought on a portable slim device with decent battery life and a large touch screen for under $70 - well, that simply changes EVERYTHING.

Androids are fun and worth every penny for what they do, but what they do will NEVER be creating or playing musical instruments of any kind until they achieve the latency and feel of the iPad and until I see these same Korg apps on them.

PERIOD.

END OF DISCUSSION.

For naysayers - get an iPad and buy the Korg apps and you tell me they suck - to my face - in person. It'll never happen. They are about as good as an app can possibly get. Hell, they are better than software for Mac and PC can get.

I rest my case. Counselor - closing remarks?

Mike

[UltraJv]

I'll post one last time in this thread due to some new purchases that are truly game changers.

On Android - not much going on - a few nice simple games. Continue to play angry birds and a really nice invoicing software for my business with signature and credit card capability.

On iPad - HOLY CRAP! Korg stuff is half off, so I bought iElectribe and Gorillaz iElectribe, Kaoss Pad and ims20 analog workstation.

Boy and girls, these apps are NOT toys. They are NOT angry birds or a new invoicing app. THEY ARE DAMN SERIOUS MUSIC-MAKING MUSCLE. I owned several drum machines that cost in the hundreds - and one over a thousand. I have ALWAYS wanted a hardware Electribe and played with one CONSTANTLY at Sam Ash - but could not afford it for whatever reason. Finally, I own a Kaossilator Pro. The Korg iPad versions of the Electribe and Kaossilator is not only SPOT ON, they are BETTER than the original in every way. Massively responsive, unbelievably fun to play and worth every penny. The ims20 is ridiculous. It is a analog piece of gear. It feels like a piece of hardware. So well done, I cannot even begin to tell you. THESE FEEL LIKE HARDWARE. That's right. Like Hardware - on an iPad.

Say what you will, but when I own four apps that feel and look like their hardware counterparts (well, the Gorillaz app looks demented, but sounds insane) - and those hardware counterparts total in the thousands - that I bought on a portable slim device with decent battery life and a large touch screen for under $70 - well, that simply changes EVERYTHING.

Androids are fun and worth every penny for what they do, but what they do will NEVER be creating or playing musical instruments of any kind until they achieve the latency and feel of the iPad and until I see these same Korg apps on them.

PERIOD.

END OF DISCUSSION.

For naysayers - get an iPad and buy the Korg apps and you tell me they suck - to my face - in person. It'll never happen. They are about as good as an app can possibly get. Hell, they are better than software for Mac and PC can get.

I rest my case. Counselor - closing remarks?

Mike

Closing remarks - I can do all the stuff I need to on my cheap netbook for fun. Otherwise ipad is a fad by all accounts :

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 71&start=0

[polaris20]

I'll post one last time in this thread due to some new purchases that are truly game changers.

On Android - not much going on - a few nice simple games. Continue to play angry birds and a really nice invoicing software for my business with signature and credit card capability.

On iPad - HOLY CRAP! Korg stuff is half off, so I bought iElectribe and Gorillaz iElectribe, Kaoss Pad and ims20 analog workstation.

Boy and girls, these apps are NOT toys. They are NOT angry birds or a new invoicing app. THEY ARE DAMN SERIOUS MUSIC-MAKING MUSCLE. I owned several drum machines that cost in the hundreds - and one over a thousand. I have ALWAYS wanted a hardware Electribe and played with one CONSTANTLY at Sam Ash - but could not afford it for whatever reason. Finally, I own a Kaossilator Pro. The Korg iPad versions of the Electribe and Kaossilator is not only SPOT ON, they are BETTER than the original in every way. Massively responsive, unbelievably fun to play and worth every penny. The ims20 is ridiculous. It is a analog piece of gear. It feels like a piece of hardware. So well done, I cannot even begin to tell you. THESE FEEL LIKE HARDWARE. That's right. Like Hardware - on an iPad.

Say what you will, but when I own four apps that feel and look like their hardware counterparts (well, the Gorillaz app looks demented, but sounds insane) - and those hardware counterparts total in the thousands - that I bought on a portable slim device with decent battery life and a large touch screen for under $70 - well, that simply changes EVERYTHING.

Androids are fun and worth every penny for what they do, but what they do will NEVER be creating or playing musical instruments of any kind until they achieve the latency and feel of the iPad and until I see these same Korg apps on them.

PERIOD.

END OF DISCUSSION.

For naysayers - get an iPad and buy the Korg apps and you tell me they suck - to my face - in person. It'll never happen. They are about as good as an app can possibly get. Hell, they are better than software for Mac and PC can get.

I rest my case. Counselor - closing remarks?

Mike

Closing remarks - I can do all the stuff I need to on my cheap netbook for fun. Otherwise ipad is a fad by all accounts :

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 71&start=0

Netbooks are a fad, in case you've not noticed the sales plummeting. Replaced by tablets, mostly of which are the iPad. The problem is that netbooks are built poorly, the keyboards suck, and the processors are horribly inadequate. You're better off just buying a cheap laptop for $500, if that's what you really want. There's also no netbook available that's as light as most tablets.

Additionally, your habit of posting KVR threads as conclusive evidence for anything continues to be amusing at best.

[Sascha Franck]

The problem is that netbooks are built poorly, the keyboards suck, and the processors are horribly inadequate.

Well, I wouldn't exactly do such a swift general statement. There's really some proper netbooks around.
Sure, processing power could be better, but most of them should be on par with whatever tablets.

For me personally, the main advances of a netbook (or any other smaller sized laptop) are a) a more or less "open" OS and b) proper connectivity to the outside world.

Regarding a) it allows me to install whatever software that I may already use on my main computer. That's quite a huge advance when it comes to compatibility. It also allows for *way* greater file compatibility (and especially iOS sucks freaking big time when it comes to that).

Regarding b) it allows me to use just about any standard hardware. As we're in a music oriented forum, just have a look at the amount of affordable, yet transportable and good quality audio interfaces there are, once you have a proper USB connection. The same goes for, say, MIDI keyboards.
Also, simply try to get a file from a bus powered USB drive onto your tablet - it's almost impossible, you usually need an extra computer for that.
Next, what about diskspace? 64GB (or even less) on a tablet is quite laughable while just about any netbook could be equipped with about 10x the space.

As a result of all this, most audio centered work is a lot more comfortable on a netbook, low latencies aren't exactly an issue, either.

Further, I actually do love some things on touchbased screens. Net surfing is great, the haptic experience when adjusting whatever parameters in whatever program is cool, too. And well, especially detailed audio editing can be massive fun on a touch screen, compared to mouse based editing (it even is in NanoStudio on an iPhone).
But, certain other things are just a royal PITA. For example, due to the missing response, I think typing is incredibly shite on a touchscreen. The same obviously goes for certain things that are related to typical keyboard actions, which most of us will probably be able to do without looking at the keyboard, such as CTRL+S, opening editors and what not.

You're better off just buying a cheap laptop for $500, if that's what you really want.

I could only partially agree with that. Especially in the $500 area, you can get quite some high quality netbooks, delivering very long battery life, proper keyboards, connectors and well lit screens. You do of course get somewhat more horsepower from a laptop, but in that price range, all the other things could be terribly bad (at least most often they are mediocre at best), so you end up with whacky connectors, low battery life, a shitty monitor and questionable other hardware components (such as cheap ass chipsets).

Anyway, personally I hope that in the (more or less near) future more companies will go the way that Asus (I think it's Asus) is doing already, namely offering a tablet kinda computer that would properly fit into a docking station, hence offering better connectivity, a real keyboard and what not. Add a "normal" OS to that scenario (not all that stripped down, highly limiting mobile OS kinda BS) and you'd probably have the best of both worlds.

Until something like that will happen, for me it's either small (read: Smartphone) or powerful (read: Laptop).
In case I'd get one for free, I would use a tablet, but right now they're nothing I'd pay for.

Ah well, sorry for going OT.

- Sascha

[kuniklo]

Touch interfaces do not replace conventional mouse & keyboard interfaces, they complement them. Each one has its own strengths and weaknesses. It's a lot more interesting to consider what new things we can do with touch interfaces than it is to argue about which is better. Both are here to stay.

As a developer, I'm excited to have so many possibilities open to me on both sides.

[Sascha Franck]

Touch interfaces do not replace conventional mouse & keyboard interfaces, they complement them. Each one has its own strengths and weaknesses. It's a lot more interesting to consider what new things we can do with touch interfaces than it is to argue about which is better. Both are here to stay.

I'm absolutely not arguing about which interface would be better. That's why I like the Asus approach, because it actually offers a rather nice solution to use both.

- Sascha

[kuniklo]

The problem I have with hybrid interfaces is that touch and mouse interfaces are really fundamentally different. Touch is coarse and imprecise but immediate and tactile. The mouse is precise but awkward, like a digital scrimshaw. The reason Apple has been so successful with the iPad, IMO, is that they recognize that these two kinds of interfaces are fundamentally different and must be designed from the ground up with the final application in mind.

[Sascha Franck]

The reason Apple has been so successful with the iPad, IMO, is that they recognize that these two kinds of interfaces are fundamentally different and must be designed from the ground up with the final application in mind.

I totally agree that there's a difference. You can even compare the difference 1:1 when using NanoStudio on an iOS device and Windows/OSX (there's a free version for either OS). As just one example (at least personally): audio editing absolutely rocks on a touch screen (even on a tiny iPhone screen) while any more or less detailed MIDI editing seems to suck (at least I haven't seen a decent solution for smartphones yet).
That's why, in an ideal world, you'd be able to use both parallely. Let's stick with that Asus idea. Why would I have to connect the touchscreen to the docking part? It's not a must. I could as well just place it next to the keyboard/mouse section on my desk and use it as both a monitor and a touchscreen. That's just a matter of (hopefully well laid out) ergonomics. Another solution would be to entirely replace the mouse by a touchscreen and have keyboard in addition. The entire shebang could then still be displayed on a larger, additional display.
Really, there's tons of options. We're just at the beginning.
The most obvious thing that needs to be adressed properly when combining traditional "input methods" (read: keyboard and mouse) and touchscreen options IMHO would be ergonomics. A typical monitor is usually placed in a way it'd make no sense to touch around on it. And a touchscreen is something that ideally would be placed right where your keyboard is. But I could pretty much imagine some scenarios when the two would work together just nicely (especially when adding a larger monitor to display the entire stuff).

- Sascha

[polaris20]

Being in IT and having had to support a few of the netbooks, I would jump to the conclusion that they're cheap shit. It's my opinion, but none of them, even the $500 models, were worth a damn. And the processors are generally slower than a modern dual core ARM is, when it's saddled with a full-blown OS.

But YMMV.

[Karmacomposer]

First, the Androids can and do accept external mouse and keyboard, but ipads only have external keyboard to my knowledge.

I have a netbook - a gateway DUAL CORE AMD 64 bit processor with a ATI Radeon video card. It is the larger of the netbooks, but it IS a netbook.

I CANNOT even DJ properly on that thing because it has all kinds of netbook-centric problems that I see in almost all netbooks. Creating music on that would be impossible.

Mike