How to think about this when composing?

[ecsmix]

I am analising a song by Radiohead_Creed



The harmony goes like this in Gmajor.

G - B - C - Cm
G - B - C - Cadd2 - Cm - Csus - Cm - G / another section
G - B - B7 - C - Cm - Cm - G/ another section

The only scale that fits those chords and notes, adding the Eb, that I found is G6thDimScale, formed by the chords G6 and F#dim7.

That Bmajor and B7 would be analised as IIImajor and III7?
What's more, Cm would be IVm, right?

How would I think like this when compose a song, like not 100% tonal with the main scale, using outside notes and chords, borrowed from a different modes?

I think he thought of the relative E harmonic minor on those C minor and B major chords, what do you think?

Thanks.

[JumpingJackFlash]

That Bmajor and B7 would be analised as IIImajor and III7?

I haven't heard it, but it might be better analysed as the Secondary Dominant V of VI.

[DocAtlas]

That Bmajor and B7 would be analised as IIImajor and III7?

I haven't heard it, but it might be better analysed as the Secondary Dominant V of VI.

That's how I hear it. It's deceptive, since instead of going where you expect (E or E minor), it goes to the IV chord (C).

[ecsmix]

Guys I understand the analisis, no problem.

Thanks for that.

I was wondering how one would think to compose like that using chords outside the "normal tonal" scale, in this casa G major.

[DocAtlas]

Guys I understand the analisis, no problem.

Thanks for that.

I was wondering how one would think to compose like that using chords outside the "normal tonal" scale, in this casa G major.

I often don't think about it at all, I just play and experiment with different chord progressions. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I suppose the best way to go about it is to not think about key at all. Play a chord, then try different things following it and see what you like. Let the chord progression define the key (or keys, you could wind up with some modulation) rather than the usual way around.

[Gamma-UT]

Do some reading on chromatic mediants - I think that will help. IVm is also a common chord used in 'sad' songs, perhaps a little too often.

[tapper mike]

Play modally. When one plays contemporary bebop/modern jazz/fusion/smooth jazz/rock jazz modality one changes the scale to fit the chord as they are over. There is no hard fast carved in stone rule that states a song or progression only has one key.

[Ogg Vorbis]

I was wondering how one would think to compose like that using chords outside the "normal tonal" scale, in this casa G major.

So here is something to realize - the MAIN tonality or key of a song may be G major or F minor, etc. But that doesn't mean a slavish and rigid adherence to only that key throughout. The beginning and ending of the primary sections will firmly establish the primary tonality but usually there are many many shifts from one tonal center to another.

This is necessary because it creates variety (unless you're Arvo Part).

So if you are struggling to try to fit everything (even within a single phrase) into one key, it is likely that there are shifts going on. The way to think of it in composing is "how can I establish a primary key, then how can I do many departures away from this key and then set up a satisfying return to the main key to wrap things up?"

[diijay]

Thanks guys, specially Gamma, I didn't know about chromatic and double chromatic mediants.

Good stuff there!

Thanks.

[jancivil]

Play modally. When one plays contemporary bebop/modern jazz/fusion/smooth jazz/rock jazz modality one changes the scale to fit the chord as they are over. There is no hard fast carved in stone rule that states a song or progression only has one key.

so then what is the mode?

I just noodled around a bit over it and I assure you there isn't one. I had to conform certain things to the changes, per se. You have a belief that you're welcome to, but trust me it's confusing to other people, your use of terminology. That you had to qualify it with 5 modifiers should make it clear that 'modal' is not in and of itself a very useful term to convey your idea of the thing.

the harmonies are the thing here, not any one scale. the OP seems to reveal that looking for an overarching idea of scale wasn't working.

The B major as per your G tonic is related to the relative minor, E. In classical harmonic practice that is known as a "mediant". This isn't classical music however and it's a bit of a moot point what Schubert or somebody did.

when I go to that B I do typical bluesy things on B, and resolve it as though a major pentatonic bluesy thing on G when that is necessary; going to C minor I do something that sticks closely to that chord. There is a D# on the B, which is a common tone for the C minor. It is a dissonance against the I chord of course. so you could have a couple of "modes", maybe. But I, as a modal player wanting to find that simple approach to these changes found it didn't work at all.

[jancivil]

I'll try to explain this to you.

when you cite eg., Santana's playing dorian on A here, dorian on D there, he is treating the new chord as its own tonic, as though the tune has moved to that as a key. He is playing as a modal player per se, in the meaningful sense of the word. there is no 'rock modal' etc that's any different than 'modal'. It is or it isn't. If you're basing your idea on a particular harmony, which is what has to happen in this context, it isn't.

here when it moves to B or Cm, that is just not what happens. The tonic is G. there is an undercurrent of B as it relates to E minor. However it does not dwell on it and the gravity centers on G. That is not modal playing, that is a pull, the tension of B and Cm *resolves* to G. That is closer to harmonic function. When I go to C minor here particularly, I am forced to tailor the line to that chord. That is the opposite of the modal idea. In jazz, in rock, whatever. Now at the outset to this it seems like it is modal but then the changes kick in. If I am conscious that I do not have a firm center of gravity, as per the B and the Cm, I am playing to the changes. I would have to get very used to the changes to have anything to say with my lines. If there was a mode I would be copasetic.

When 'modal jazz' happened in history, it happened when people like Miles Davis got fed up with ii V I and playing in changes that went around in those circles, and looked to the east for inspiration at least to some degree and the general idea was to stick to a given mode as a discipline, rather than rely on the harmony for your ideas. Because you had the outcome of stock licks for a type of change, in bebop for instance.

Whether you believe me or not, I don't think it's a great idea to be this foggy on terminology when other people are asking some basic questions.

[KLS]

Hi, ecsmix. I saw this thread over the weekend and I wanted to make a response to it. It seems that you have some questions about songwriting. How can we think about including chords from outside a key in a song and a question about whether or not the writer of this song considered the E harmonic minor scale when composing it. We can talk about the first question by considering how this song may have been composed. But my answer to the second question is 'probably not'.

I listened to the song and looked at the chord progression you posted. Now, we were not there when the songwriter wrote this song, but I think with a bit of analysis and a little informed speculation, we can uncover the thought process that may have gone into the composition. So, let's take a look and see what we can see.

Starting with the first line of the progression, the first chord we have is G. OK, good. This is the tonic chord in the key of G major. The next chord is a B major triad. Hmmm... Well, a B major triad is not part of the key of G, so right now it's not clear what this chord is. For now let's skip over it and come back to it later. The next chord is C. This is the subdominant chord in the key of G. OK, the next chord is Cm. This is a subdominant minor chord that is 'borrowed' from the parallel key of G minor. Using a subdominant minor chord in a song will give the harmony a sad, poignant quality, as Gamma-UT has pointed out. This would seem to fit well with the subject matter of the lyric - "I'm a creep". Now we are at the end of the first line, so let's look at what we have so far. We have a progression that goes from Tonic to Subdominant to Subdominant Minor. This is a standard chord progression for a song that uses a subdominant minor chord. This is a common progression in popular music. For another example of this, check out the song 'Desperado' by the Eagles.

So, now let's take a look at that pesky B major chord. What is it? Why is it there? Well, suppose our songwriter wanted a transition chord to go from the G to the C. What choices would he have? The normal thing to do would be to use the secondary dominant, G7 in this case. But we just played a G chord and he wants to use something different. He needs another chord that will create some harmonic motion and 'introduce' the C chord. Using his knowledge of theory, he considers some substitutions for the G7. The first one he tries is Db7 - the tritone substitution for G7. But he doesn't like this chord because it approaches the C chord from a half-step above and doesn't have the sound he wants. The next substitute chord he considers is Bdim. This is the leading-tone chord in the key of C, the key of our target chord. He likes this chord because it approaches the C from a half-step below, but he doesn't like the diminished quality of the chord. It sounds too strong, or too predictable or too old-fashioned, or whatever. So, he starts to experiment with the chord and changes it from a B diminished chord to a B major chord. A-ha! He likes this chord. It has the sound he wants and seems to work well in the song. He decides to keep it. So, this is a good possibility for where that B major chord came from. The thing that makes this chord work is that it has a leading-tone relationship with the target chord and therefore can function in a cadence. It can be a substitute for a secondary dominant.

(Of course, the songwriter could have written this song on a guitar and when he played the C chord, he just slid his hand down one fret to the B chord and found the chord that way. In which case I'm just full of hot air!)

The next two lines in the song have pretty much the same progression as the first line except that they end up on the tonic chord. In the third line, they change the B to a B7. Turning the chord into a dominant seventh chord just emphasizes it's secondary dominant quality even more in my opinion.

So, with this type of analysis we can see the thinking that probably went into composing this song. The songwriter started with a standard chord progression and then modified it to suit his needs. This is typically the way that songwriters work. And this is an example of how you can include chords from 'outside' the key in a song.

For more on standard chord progressions, check out this website:

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/

Here is a good article for information on subdominant minor chords:

http://personal.inet.fi/private/tomas.k ... on102.html

Thanks for listening.

- Ken

[diijay]

Ken, amazing explanation.

Thank you very much.

Can I say you used some jazz reharm tecniques?

Like tritone sub and dim7 from half tone under the target note.

Besides those two what else would you consider to target the C minor?

Thanks again.

[shankfiddle]

diijay:

Depends on how you're "targeting" the Cm.

You can either target to modulate to the Cm, or use it modally as it is here, to half-mod from G to g minor

Given the diatonic chords for a minor key:
im7 ivm7 viio III^ VI^ iim7b5 V7

for the latter (as it is in used the song) you could prepare the Cm with any diatonic chord from Gm:
Gm7 Cm7 f#o Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 am7b5 D7
Using any of these chords would prepare the ear for the key.

but if you wanted to modulate to Cm, the easiest way of course would be the ii-V of Cm (last two chords of the circle of fifths progression) but you could also use any of the diatonic chords for cm to prepare the listener's ear:
Cm7 Fm7 bo Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 dm7b5 G7


For the beginner, you can just as easily leave out the sevenths and work in triads

[shankfiddle]

That Bmajor and B7 would be analised as IIImajor and III7?

I haven't heard it, but it might be better analysed as the Secondary Dominant V of VI.

KLS:
Good theory trying out the leading-tone and the tritone sub. But that's an overly circuitous explanation of something quite simple. As jumpinJack said, the B7 is the V7 of the relative minor, e. The easiest mode shift in the composer's toolkit.