Guitar-Driven Composition

[ruxxes]

In part, this discussion continues my previous question: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=327841.

After some struggling and experimenting with guitar arrangements, I came to the point that I wonder whether or not it is actually possible to compose on the guitar exclusively?

I know, in the process of composing, most of you use keyboards (at least as a point of reference), but maybe some another guitar geek here?

When it comes to harmony (or counterpoint, if you prefer), something (far from Teddy Green) with the use of voicings that are rich in the first place and complete (at least partially), is it really possible to arrange just anything that one might hear in one's head when starting hearing more in an orchestral way?

And which is not anything close to either rock (no simple power chords, no-no), bossa-nova (meaning more or less simple juxtapositions of rich stacked voicings), or be-bop (when the function eats nuances no matter how much you like it).

As a summary: is it possible to avoid using bass (as well as keys) as a separate instrument to create a convincing arrangement out of maximum of four voices on the guitar?

Thanks again!

[jancivil]

I know, in the process of composing, most of you use keyboards (at least as a point of reference), but maybe some another guitar geek here?

I never got good at keyboards. I didn't grow up with a piano around the house and I never took to the instrument in the little bit of schooling I got. I will never conceptualize things according to that layout. In my studies, the idea was impressed upon me that one should ultimately endeavor to think of music more holistically than a particular instrument's approach provides. There is an ideal, unachievable for most I might add, of writing purely in one's head away from any instrument. I am inspired by sound above any other idea so I don't agree with that, but in principle there is a point to that idea. You want to hear a melody you're thinking about in your head, you sing it, the direct connection of mind/ear and voice; along with knowing an instrument, this can get you to know what you're after and obtain it most efficiently.

Sticking to an instrument, particularly guitar anyway as I know that instrument, for the actual choices in composition presents the potential hazard, that you're going to be going for things that lie under your fingers with the most facility, instead of hearing it first. Singing a line isn't position-based, fingering-oriented, the line is the thing, it's pure.

When it comes to harmony (or counterpoint, if you prefer), something ... with the use of voicings that are rich in the first place and complete (at least partially), is it really possible to arrange just anything that one might hear in one's head when starting hearing more in an orchestral way?

Not when starting, not too likely. It can become more and more possible with experience.

And which is not anything close to ... be-bop (when the function eats nuances no matter how much you like it).

I don't get that statement; the thing of bop is the preferred procedures are preferred because they take care of voice-leading by providing the most supple path. It won't be a very true statement, 'voice-leading is unimportant in be-bop progressions', I assure you. Great solos are great part-writing. Voice-leading = part-writing.

If you're really interested, you will want to study four-part writing.

[Stephen_D]

You can create compositions purely on guitar, but this carries with it inherent risk - your compositions are always going to be as limited as your abilities on the guitar. This might mean that many songs you write will sound very similar and you will find yourself in a musical rut.

In my humble opinion, it is far better to write songs on the keyboard, even with limited ability on that instrument, using it as the framework of the song. You can then add layers of guitars and other instruments to it.

[tapper mike]

There is no mandate that states you have to compose in one take.


As far as genre's not being suited for the instrument honestly that's not really valid as there have been several writers/composers who have created songs in those styles on the guitar.

Guitars have 6 strings for a reason. You are allowed to use all six strings anytime you need them.

Long before the advent of affordable multi track recording I had to cassete decks. I would record sound on sound. Laying down parts the same way Les Paul did before the invention of the multi-track. I'd be able to work out the sectional content. Today with the advent of millions of effects the immediacy of multi-track recorders it is very possible to attain the full harmonic range of sounds on a guitar with a computer.

As far as bebop goes it was/is an improvisational format. Mile Davis would hand his musicians slips of paper with simple scales and tell them to play with it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_jazz

If you are working in a band or with session musicians it's assumed you will seek out talent. Those musicians don't want to be spoonfec (although session muscians can be for a price) every note they are supposed to be playing as well as when and how. If you are the hard taskmaster unrelenting and demanding then the onus is on you to provide them with material in readable form. You have put a burden on yourself to transcribe the material to notation. Of which means you will have to develop scoring and arranging skills for notation.

[Stephen_D]

Long before the advent of affordable multi track recording I had to cassete decks. I would record sound on sound. Laying down parts the same way Les Paul did before the invention of the multi-track. I'd be able to work out the sectional content. Today with the advent of millions of effects the immediacy of multi-track recorders it is very possible to attain the full harmonic range of sounds on a guitar with a computer.

Hi Tapper Mike

I also used to record my compositions in this way, many moons ago. Back then, only the very lucky (and well off) guitarists I knew had a proper four track recorder, and it was nearly impossible to borrow it for the weekend, so I used to layer stuff up using the Line In on a standard cassette deck. Used to produce pretty good results too!

It's almost too easy nowadays

[wrench45us]

the very late Hendrix work often had 6 or 7 layers of guitar parts

a guitarist friend had ears for this sort of thing. He used to deconstruct some of Boston' big sound big hits and it was similarly many layers of guitar parts

people work with what they know.
what I found working with my limited skills with piano was the better I got at piano, the more 'weight' I moved into the keyboard part. As a 'composer' I think I did better earlier when I couldn't play as well and layered simple parts from different instruments.
I've taken up bass lately to eventually be able to merge some independent/dependent parts together.

what it comes down to is ability to hear differnt related parts. After that I'm not sure where the parts are heard (from what instrument)
at one time it was thought that Quincy Jones sure he's a black dude so he knows how to create great horn charts, but he can't do string arrangements. Well it turns out he could do strings just as well.

[tapper mike]

Hi Tapper Mike

I also used to record my compositions in this way, many moons ago. Back then, only the very lucky (and well off) guitarists I knew had a proper four track recorder, and it was nearly impossible to borrow it for the weekend, so I used to layer stuff up using the Line In on a standard cassette deck. Used to produce pretty good results too!

It's almost too easy nowadays

Before I could afford my own I use to rent a four track. Once a month for four days. I'd clear my shedule make plans for what I would try, get the basics down before it arrived.

Re horns and strings, I used to buy sheet music for horns and strings then step program it into my first sequencer.

Re bass, The nice thing about guitar is that it's well suited to learn basslines. I switched instruments for a time and played nothing but bass because I could always get a gig as a bass player. Guitarists were a dime a dozen.

[jancivil]

- your compositions are always going to be as limited as your abilities on the guitar.

I don't agree. I'm no encyclopedia on the guitar, I'm no keyboard player and aside from percussion I don't play anything else. I can write for any role I understand from studying the players on their axe and arrangers.

I can write shit I could never play, including guitar music. A horn pleyer might want to get hold of an instrument they can try out harmonies on, but guitar is not so much a limitation as a foundation IME.

[tapper mike]

Horn arrangments can't be done in one take on a guitar or even two sometimes. Most winds/brass arrangments start in similarity to "Shearing" type block chords where tight clusters of tones are voiced there are times when three or four voices can be unison or spread to a closed or open chords similar to Garland and Shearing approaches to "block chords" it is something that is a struggle at best for keyboard players to work out even with the best of modern tools> it"s something that would require multiple tracks of single note lines to get right and even then it would confuse a horn player or section to no end to unseat and recombine< especially if one were composing like Gershwin

[jancivil]

I would play what I could and sing the other parts against. Actually I would argue that was better for me than a piano. You don't know until you get some horns to play it really. As a fundament for getting your harmony together, guitar is ok. The ear is the thing to get, the knowledge. I recommend singing harmonies, in your band, in the church choir, or in class...

the person said, 'you are always going to be as limited as your abilities [on the instrument]' as per composition. I'm not. I would in fact write things I couldn't play as exercises to overcome some things.

I now write at the piano roll. I write very ambitious things. I input them via a keyboard controller if they aren't drums/percussion. I'm no keyboard ace. I did not learn how to write, say a virtuosic sax solo from my non-existent sax skills, or my keyboard skills, or because I am just that omnipotent on the guitar. It's all about the ear, and the imagination.

As a basis per the OP: You can get harmonies on the guitar. It is no stumbling block for composition or arranging.

[Stephen_D]

- your compositions are always going to be as limited as your abilities on the guitar.

I don't agree. I'm no encyclopedia on the guitar, I'm no keyboard player and aside from percussion I don't play anything else. I can write for any role I understand from studying the players on their axe and arrangers.

I can write shit I could never play, including guitar music. A horn pleyer might want to get hold of an instrument they can try out harmonies on, but guitar is not so much a limitation as a foundation IME.

Surely that is just composing for the guitar, and not on the guitar?

To me, guitar based composition means using a guitar as a tool for coming up with a composition, e.g just using a 4 track to record a melody from improvisation, and then layering and building it up.

Semantics perhaps, but I was thinking, in this scenario, the composition will be limited by the player's ability (much like my compositions were limited at age 17!).

[jancivil]

My composing for the guitar is informed by my experience with it and an interest in doing things outside 'guitaristic' mannerisms. I don't find a necessary dichotomy.

As I said I wrote exercises to expand my technique rather than think I can't write something I can't play. I believe that's more useful than what you said there.

[tapper mike]

I used to be in a band where the drummer provided most of the compositions. Away from the drums he would compose guitar parts on the keyboard because he couldn't play guitar. Usually when he said "This might be hard to pull off on a guitar" it wasn't. None of the single note stuff was especially challenging even though he would try to push his compositional skills to their limits. On occasion I would approach him on a piece that couldn't be voiced correcty for the guitar. I'd say "this isn't achieveable however here is something similar that may work" and we would work it out so it was.


As far as horns/strings if you work with a single instrument solo or limit yourself to two instruments you can gain alot just by listening to artists in that field, and/or using your imagination. Back in the 80's I was an early midi guitar adapter. The ibanex 2010 X-ing was actually more stable and produced more consistent response using a 24 pin system then the later roland 13 pin system.,,,,anyway back then we would run it thru a synth or whatever and try to bring some life to the sounds. (myself and other guitarists) While the other guitarists were content to play common guitar riffs and what not on it I would "envision" how a trumpet player or sax player or violinist might perform something. As a result I could carve up more realistic representations of those parts.

[jancivil]

well, the original poster never returned so this is 'talk amongst yourselves' or for whomever chances on this.

I think the idea that the instrument a writer or arranger is based in is a necessary limitation only shows a limitation of imagination. And a kind of unformed idea of what writers and arrangers do really.


I approach a part as me assuming the role of that personality, an instrument has a personality and a backstory; a cello isn't the same character as the soprano sax at all, so you let the instrument tell you what to do by the timbre and the character, and the history of that, the identities provided by that...

sometimes it's good to approach a line more abstractly, but the limitation of 'identity' tends to be a good thing.
the first thing I do with a composition is determine the palette. I was an arranger before I was a composer.

[wrench45us]

As far as horns/strings if you work with a single instrument solo or limit yourself to two instruments you can gain alot just by listening to artists in that field, and/or using your imagination. Back in the 80's I was an early midi guitar adapter. The ibanex 2010 X-ing was actually more stable and produced more consistent response using a 24 pin system then the later roland 13 pin system.,,,,anyway back then we would run it thru a synth or whatever and try to bring some life to the sounds. (myself and other guitarists) While the other guitarists were content to play common guitar riffs and what not on it I would "envision" how a trumpet player or sax player or violinist might perform something. As a result I could carve up more realistic representations of those parts.

those familiar with Jerry Garcia's trumpet synth phase (90's) with the Dead
understand. I had the impression it was more fun and entertaining and challenging for him than the listeners. I got the sense that he was definitely rethinking his approach when he was doing that trumpet sound.

having played fretted instruments (not well mind you) now tuned in 5ths and 4ths even that is a significantly different approach --