Ear Training...Getting a trained ear.

[mystran]

As you have kind of pointed out, it may not matter for day to day rock and roll, why learn it if you don't need it, but if you are amongst the 2nd violinists in an orchestra, they will have perfect pitch or they wouldn't be there.

Not true. I used to know quite a few classical musicians before I gave up my violin, and most of those people tend to have ridiculously good relative pitch, but relatively few have perfect pitch (it's probably several times more common than in general population, but it's still relatively rare). Quite a few do wish they had it as it'd occasionally help (but see my previous post about how it doesn't always help my sister).

[Sascha Franck]

the assumption here is incorrect in my view, but that may depend on a difference as to what type of musician you mean.
As you have kind of pointed out, it may not matter for day to day rock and roll, why learn it if you don't need it, but if you are amongst the 2nd violinists in an orchestra, they will have perfect pitch or they wouldn't be there.

No offense meant, but I would really like to know which source you're getting your wisdom from.
Fwiw, I am what you might call a professional musician (at least that's what pays my income for over 2 decades by now). Plus, I'm lucky enough to play quite some gigs with what I think are some of the finest musicians over here. Now, all over these years, I only met two guys having perfect pitch.
Also, your statement about just about all 2nd violinists in an orchestra having perfect pitch is simply untrue. I know some of these folks, too. Add to this that (as mystran sort of pointed out already) especially on non tempered instruments, perfect pitch could get in the way, even more so if you play, say, baroque music or have to deal with a great variation of reference As (orchestras doing older stuff usually tune quite below 440Hz while most modern orchestras tune quite a bit higher).

In addition, if perfect pitch was something that could be aquired more or less reliably by more or less anyone:
1) You'd think that many professionals would go through quite some efforts to aquire it (as said already). I certainly would (and have tried some things...). It's not happening. Why is that?
2) You'd certainly think that it was at least an optional part of ear training classes at conservatories and music universities, right? But it isn't. Nowhere. Why is that?

Especially in professional musical environments, perfect pitch could be an invaluable tool (certainly not in *all* environments, but very often...). How comes, only such a little amount of people has it?

- Sascha

[fateamenabletochange]

I'm not convinced that it can be learned by the random individual.

Above some research was quoted that perfect pitch would be about 15 times more likely that in a family with history of perfect pitch.

An interest [perseverance motivation etc] in learning perfect pitch might be 15 times more likely when a family member has or has had that same interest, and has perfect pitch. Money sometimes seems to run in families, but it isn't inherited genetically is it, like the colour of your eyes. ?



If you look at a large orchestra tuning up, the piano player will not be bellowing, 'here's an A you jokers', pounding on the A. What you will see is everybody kind of in their own little world steadying there nerves maybe, and listening to the kind of tone they have in their head to get into tune, and later they may kind of start directing their attention out to the people in their section as a double check.

[fateamenabletochange]

The term 'perfect pitch' is perhaps a misnomer...that 'perfect' word is kind of scary for some peeps I guess., kind of false humility and pedantic overanalysis perhaps.
Being able to tune to a remembered tone in your head can be learned, and is all the time, by many, and people in a good orchestras will have this ability....whether they choose to tell you Sascha and mystran is maybe another thing, you seem fairly fixed about this.

Knowledge of pitch is part of music exams...hum the A below middle C, now.

Again, there will be people on this forum that have perfect pitch and don't know it. GO ON, go to a keyboard, look at it and hum middle C, then play it.

Go on, try it, it is easier than you think.

[Sascha Franck]

Knowledge of pitch is part of music exams...hum the A below middle C, now.

Wrong, it's not (at least not without getting a reference pitch).
I never had to do that at all, not in my entry tests, not in my final ear training exams.

- Sascha

[fateamenabletochange]

Royal College Pianoforte.

If you were given a reference tone, it wouldn't be much of a test would it ?

here's a note....now go down 3 tones...la la la...not a test of much is it ??

again, pap, dogma pedantic overanalysing

[mystran]

If you look at a large orchestra tuning up, the piano player will not be bellowing, 'here's an A you jokers', pounding on the A. What you will see is everybody kind of in their own little world steadying there nerves maybe, and listening to the kind of tone they have in their head to get into tune, and later they may kind of start directing their attention out to the people in their section as a double check.

Actually I've played with large orchestras (as large as you can find in this small country) back in the day and it's important to realize that audience never really sees real tuning at all (which can take a while; anyway what is done on stage is really just a basic sanity check and at least partially for the show). The way it works is that someone (usually concertmaster) takes a reference (often from a tuning fork since not even all concertmasters have perfect pitch, but you'd use a piano obviously if there's one) and people tune to that reference.

The thing is, someone with good relative pitch really only needs the reference once. I can take the A once from a piano, walk to another room, pickup an instrument like violin, and tune it pretty damn well as long as I have the reference in my conscious mind. What I can't do is just pickup an instrument at any random moment without hearing reference tones, and still expect to end up at A440 (which is trivial if you have perfect pitch).

The "kind of their own" actually doesn't work at all. In practice it's normal that if you tune a symphonic orchestra at A440, then play for 2-3 hours, by the time you end you're up to A445 (not kidding). This happens because everyone "kind of their own" readjusts their tuning when they feel it's off, and on average almost everyone tends to tune themselves very very slightly above the actual target. Ask any orchestra musician, this is fairly well known phenomena.

[Sascha Franck]

Royal College Pianoforte.

I googled that. No relevant hits. What is it?

If you were given a reference tone, it wouldn't be much of a test would it ?

It's a typical test for relative pitch stuff. Of course a very easy one. But in ear training tests you *are* given a reference tone at the start of the test, in case you should indeed name the note (and not just identify intervals or so).

again, pap, dogma pedantic overanalysing

Pardon me? Just because you have most likely never even seen a music university, let alone absolved any ear training classes? you seem to have absolutely no idea about what things are like in the more or less professional music world.

Anyway, let's just stop this discussion, it's a waste of time.

- Sascha

[shankfiddle]

if perfect pitch was something that could be aquired more or less reliably by more or less anyone:
1) You'd think that many professionals would go through quite some efforts to aquire it (as said already). I certainly would (and have tried some things...). It's not happening. Why is that?

All this proves is that in your particular case with your musical upbringing, YOU have not been able to acquire the skill (no offense intended, so please don't get defensive and start questioning my musical credentials). Perhaps you should try another method, there have been at least three mentioned earlier in this thread. Have you actually tried them all?

Especially in professional musical environments, perfect pitch could be an invaluable tool (certainly not in *all* environments, but very often...). How comes, only such a little amount of people has it?

How come so few people can play paganini? Or juggle and ride a unicycle simultaneously. Some things require an insane amount of skill/training and genetics can give you a much better chance at learning them. But there are different levels of "professional" musicianship.

I would argue that the "i can't do it so it can't be done" mindset is inherited.

So is the "it's really f-ing difficult so I'm not going to stop trying until I succeed" mindset. Very few professionals have the disciplined persistence I'm talking about. Most are 90% ego... especially in orchestras when the instruments take that much more time/energy/training to learn than fretted counterparts. People used to say Paganini was "impossible" and there really wasn't any point in trying to learn his pieces.

the attitude was "he can do something I can't... that's not possible... he must be demented or possessed by the devil... yea that must be it."

Knowledge of pitch is part of music exams...hum the A below middle C, now.

Wrong, it's not (at least not without getting a reference pitch).
I never had to do that at all, not in my entry tests, not in my final ear training exams.

So YOU have not had to develop the skill. Therefore it isn't a part of any music curriculum anywhere? Anyone else take issue with that logic?

When you say perfect pitch acquisition is impossible you are using a defense mechanism to feel better about the fact that SO FAR you have not been able to develop it. I still think you can learn it if you work at it enough. No different from being able to discern between major/minor/dim/aug more or less automatically.

Anyway, let's just stop this discussion, it's a waste of time.

It only is if you have already convinced yourself that you cannot be wrong. I'm a music teacher, so although I would love to just give up, I have to continue as long as there is spongy logic to correct.

[Sascha Franck]

All this proves is that in your particular case with your musical upbringing, YOU have not been able to acquire the skill (no offense intended, so please don't get defensive and start questioning my musical credentials). Perhaps you should try another method, there have been at least three mentioned earlier in this thread. Have you actually tried them all?

No, I haven't. And I won't.

How come so few people can play paganini? Or juggle and ride a unicycle simultaneously. Some things require an insane amount of skill/training and genetics can give you a much better chance at learning them. But there are different levels of "professional" musicianship.

Did you read my other comment? Apparently not, so I'm repeating it just for you: How comes, that aquiring perfect pitch is NOT part of ANY ear training in ANY decent ear training classes?
Getting informed about Paganini (or possibly even playing stuff) however is part of just about any professional violin classes.

I would argue that the "i can't do it so it can't be done" mindset is inherited.

Sheer nonsense.

So is the "it's really f-ing difficult so I'm not going to stop trying until I succeed" mindset. Very few professionals have the disciplined persistence I'm talking about. Most are 90% ego... especially in orchestras when the instruments take that much more time/energy/training to learn than fretted counterparts. People used to say Paganini was "impossible" and there really wasn't any point in trying to learn his pieces.

Would you happen to have *any* prove to make such a swift statement, or are you just talking out of your ass, as fateamenabletochange is doing?

So YOU have not had to develop the skill. Therefore it isn't a part of any music curriculum anywhere? Anyone else take issue with that logic?

May I ask which drugs you're on? Show me ANY representative music university with ear training classes that teach you to aquire perfect pitch. Really, ANY!

When you say perfect pitch acquisition is impossible you are using a defense mechanism to feel better about the fact that SO FAR you have not been able to develop it. I still think you can learn it if you work at it enough. No different from being able to discern between major/minor/dim/aug more or less automatically.

Again, you're just talking out of your ass. Wishful thinking. Prove the opposite.

I'm a music teacher, so although I would love to just give up, I have to continue as long as there is spongy logic to correct.

Your poor students. But I assume they all have aquired perfect pitch by now, correct?

- SF

[Bobbotov]

I have only known one person to have perfect pitch and that was Herb Deutsch who was a good friend of Bob Moog and helped him in the design of the famous synth.

He could tell you what note a squeaking door was or a cat cry. He could listen to a passage of music and play it back note for note after one listening. We did several projects together and he was just such a delight to work with and I never ceased to marvel at his gift.

[Sascha Franck]

And just one thing more:

No different from being able to discern between major/minor/dim/aug more or less automatically.

I fail to understand how anybody could make such a statement. Discerning between maj/min and whatelse is a 100% relative thing. It hasn't even remotely got anything to do with what perfect pitch is, nor is the process, the difficulty - and whatever might play a role - even remotely related. It's not even apples and oranges anymore.

You folks should really try to get your act together.

- SF

[shankfiddle]

While I do enjoy a spirited debate I find your comment about my students extremely disrespectful. Let's keep this "professional"

I provide students with a foundation for them to explore music on their own terms. I give them exercises and encouragement, with an understanding that they may be able to identify pitches at some point down the road (after they are no longer taking lessons with me). EVERY lesson starts with the premise that "you can do this, and if you put in the time you will" any skill takes time to learn: no one can do a backflip on their first attempt... Interval id drills and pitch memory, hell, ALL ear-training is perfect-pitch training. it is a skill that some will acquire in their lifetime, and others will not. I do not criticize a student who is slow to develop absolute pitch. I have had two students develop perfect pitch through memory and picking out reference pitches from voice or environment. I would like to think that more of my former students have since acquired it in college/conservatory through further training.

But perfect pitch is not the end-all of ear training, once you have "perfect pitch" your ears can still improve in other ways. I've known musicians born with perfect pitch who couldn't identify chords (purely due to a lack of training/practice) without transcribing note-by-note. This is why it is not belabored in curricula (including mine).

I would argue that the "i can't do it so it can't be done" mindset is inherited.

Sheer nonsense.

So is the "it's really f-ing difficult so I'm not going to stop trying until I succeed" mindset. Very few professionals have the disciplined persistence I'm talking about. Most are 90% ego... especially in orchestras when the instruments take that much more time/energy/training to learn than fretted counterparts. People used to say Paganini was "impossible" and there really wasn't any point in trying to learn his pieces.

Would you happen to have *any* prove to make such a swift statement, or are you just talking out of your ass, as fateamenabletochange is doing?

well there are three points, which are you disagreeing with? That family influences one's work ethic? That ego prevades the music community? because this thread alone supports my statement... and we are both equally guilty
Work ethic is strongly influenced by family. Not exclusively genetic, I'll give you that, but there are genetic predispositions: certain children can focus for longer periods of time, persevere longer without getting frustrated. My most brilliant students have been children of immigrant parents, parents who worked tirelessly to break free of the poverty cycle to make a better life for their children. In my experience children of focused/driven parents make the best musicians, but they aren't necessarily the best at absolute pitch identification. But they do have a work ethic that I envy.

Or are you simply upset with my notion that a bowed stringed instrument takes more time/energy/training than the fretted equivalent? I have had this discussion many times before. I'd be happy to debate this point, but leave the guitar out (and please start a new thread if you want to get into it). Compare mandolin to violin or bowed-stand-up-acoustic to electric bass.

All this proves is that in your particular case with your musical upbringing, YOU have not been able to acquire the skill (no offense intended, so please don't get defensive and start questioning my musical credentials). Perhaps you should try another method, there have been at least three mentioned earlier in this thread. Have you actually tried them all?

No, I haven't. And I won't.

well there you have it. Two types of people in this world, those who work tirelessly, and those who give up.

Seems to me the reason you don't have perfect pitch is the same reason I can't do a backflip. Perhaps I could if i did the exercises, but as you so brilliantly put it, "No... I won't..." so now we''ll never know.

-sf

[shankfiddle]

And just one thing more:

No different from being able to discern between major/minor/dim/aug more or less automatically.

I fail to understand how anybody could make such a statement. Discerning between maj/min and whatelse is a 100% relative thing. It hasn't even remotely got anything to do with what perfect pitch is, nor is the process, the difficulty - and whatever might play a role - even remotely related. It's not even apples and oranges anymore.

You folks should really try to get your act together.

- SF

It is not relative, chords are based on the overtone series. Whether you tune to 440 or 415, a major chord is a major chord, augmented is augmented. The specific feel of each chord quality has to do with the alignment of the partials above your fundamentals.

every pitch generates a series of overtones, 1 5 1 3 5 1 ... (the 3 being the major third). This defines a major chord.

That's why when tuning to a piano A, frequently you'll hear the accompanist contextualize an A with a dm chord. they do this because of the partials and overtone series. "A partials" resonate as the fifth of D, M3 of F, and of course, A. Minor chords have a very specific feel, which is a result of the interactions of these partials.

As do major chords... formed when each note aligns with the partials of the root.

similarly, augmented chords (stacked major thirds) are when each note aligns with the partials for M3. it's a very unique feel when the fifth partial of a root is not reinforced.

dims are stacked minor thirds. no reinforced fifth and no reinforced M3

That is not relative, that's physics. and with practice and training you will be able to identify chord qualities absolutely. and this is very relevant to perfect pitch. it is interval identification, which is half of the perfect pitch battle, the other half being pitch memory.

-sf

[Sascha Franck]

It is not relative, chords are based on the overtone series.

Pardon?
What do chords have to do with overtone series?

Whether you tune to 440 or 415, a major chord is a major chord, augmented is augmented. The specific feel of each chord quality has to do with the alignment of the partials above your fundamentals.

Partials?
Really, must've been some strong drugs.

every pitch generates a series of overtones, 1 5 1 3 5 1 ... (the 3 being the major third). This defines a major chord.

Err - and that proves exactly what? I am rather familiar with both overtones and chords. They only have "certain" things to do with each other (such as a majpr chord not necessarily requiring a third).

That's why when tuning to a piano A, frequently you'll hear the accompanist contextualize an A with a dm chord. they do this because of the partials and overtone series. "A partials" resonate as the fifth of D, M3 of F, and of course, A. Minor chords have a very specific feel, which is a result of the interactions of these partials.

And all this has got exactly NOTHING to do with perfect pitch. Seriously, NOTHING!

That is not relative, that's physics.

It is physics, yes. But it has got exactly ZERO to do with perfect pitch. Anything you said is dealing with relative pitch.

and with practice and training you will be able to identify chord qualities absolutely.

I know. I'm pretty good at it.

and this is very relevant to perfect pitch.

Utter nonsense. It's got zilch to do with it. Perfect pitch is about a certain note being G1, Eb3 or whatever. Chords are a relation og notes, completely regardless of their tonality or concert pitch.

it is interval identification, which is half of the perfect pitch battle, the other half being pitch memory.

Same nonsense as above. Interval identification is a pure relative thing.

- SF