Hi,
I have a melod in a minor/c major that I run through the Live scale plugin.
Live scale is forcing the notes to C major, but then I change the base note from C to C#. What scale does this result in?
How should I use my brain to find this out myself? The scale plugin is still kind of mystery to me.
Thanks you!
basic question about modal scales
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- KVRian
- 523 posts since 22 Jul, 2008
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- KVRist
- 112 posts since 13 Dec, 2011
Ableton's scale is tricky.
It depends on the specific settings you have on your instance of the plug. how are you conforming your scale to C major?
If you are thinking of black keys as "sharps", then you'd lower all accidentals to fit, so the grid would be (from left to right) 1-1-3-3-5-6-6-8-8-10-10-12. the second note, a C# moves down to a C.
If you are treating black keys as flats, then you raise all accidentals. 1-3-3-5-5-6-8-8-10-10-12-12. Db would be the second note, and it would move up to a D.
if you then change the root to C# you are conforming to C# major. the mode would be dependent on your melody, and which scale degree you're treating as tonic.
A useful mnemonic for the major modes is:
I Drank Piss Last Month and Lived
ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian
so if after changing the root, you think the mode is based on the third degree of C#, it would be a E#(Fb) Phrygian, or B#(C) Locrian if based on the leading tone, etc.
It depends on the specific settings you have on your instance of the plug. how are you conforming your scale to C major?
If you are thinking of black keys as "sharps", then you'd lower all accidentals to fit, so the grid would be (from left to right) 1-1-3-3-5-6-6-8-8-10-10-12. the second note, a C# moves down to a C.
If you are treating black keys as flats, then you raise all accidentals. 1-3-3-5-5-6-8-8-10-10-12-12. Db would be the second note, and it would move up to a D.
if you then change the root to C# you are conforming to C# major. the mode would be dependent on your melody, and which scale degree you're treating as tonic.
A useful mnemonic for the major modes is:
I Drank Piss Last Month and Lived
ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian
so if after changing the root, you think the mode is based on the third degree of C#, it would be a E#(Fb) Phrygian, or B#(C) Locrian if based on the leading tone, etc.
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- KVRist
- 147 posts since 5 Dec, 2009
Why don't you record in midi whatever the scale plugin is playing then you analyse the notes?
After that you can edit and whatever notes is out of scale or you don't like the sound of it you can change easily.
There is the Schwarzonator II as well but you must have Max4Live.
http://www.ableton.com/schwarzonator
Bear in mind that all those plugins are tools and cannot replace a producer that knows music theory and harmony.
After that you can edit and whatever notes is out of scale or you don't like the sound of it you can change easily.
There is the Schwarzonator II as well but you must have Max4Live.
http://www.ableton.com/schwarzonator
Bear in mind that all those plugins are tools and cannot replace a producer that knows music theory and harmony.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I can't know what Live does there. 'forcing ... to C major' isn't instantly meaningful to me, for instance. A minor, unadorned and C major are the same in terms of a set. the difference is that they have a different tonic, or central tone.flowdesigner wrote:Hi,
I have a melod in a minor/c major that I run through the Live scale plugin.
Live scale is forcing the notes to C major, but then I change the base note from C to C#. What scale does this result in?
How should I use my brain to find this out myself? The scale plugin is still kind of mystery to me.
What happens to C major if C is absent is, it isn't C major anymore. I don't know what else happens with that software to make A minor change by changing the root of C major to C#. That seems complex. It seems like a bad way to approach the problem.
"A minor" in the way you have framed it here = same set as C major (on a keyboard all white keys), also known as the Aeolian mode. All seven of these ecclesiastical modes will be the same set of seven tones, differently ordered, seven ways, deriving seven 'modes'
You will notice that there is a series of intervals in any scale. This will simply shift as you change which *tonic*, ie., change which *mode*.
Aeolian: A B C D E F G [A]. whole/half/whole/whole/half/whole/[whole]. or tone/semitone/tone/tone/s.t./tone/[tone]
Locrian: B C D E F G A . half/whole/whole/half/whole/whole/[whole].
Ionian: C D E F G A B [C]. whole/whole/half/whole/whole/whole/[half].
If you change this set only by making C into C#, you'll have something which might be called a synthetic scale.
With *A* as tonic: A B C# D E F G. There would tend to be various names for that one. One way to consider it is to take it in two parts: A B C# D, and the E F G A. You'd find a major quality in the bottom and the top part is same as the 'natural minor' aka Aeolian mode. You will have changed the third as relates to A. What it is for a C scale is less easy to describe.
hopefully that is food for thought. It really is best if you learn to walk before using a crutch of software to make decisions for you, about what step is next.
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- KVRist
- 112 posts since 13 Dec, 2011
If that was the only change, it would simply be C# altered, game over.jancivil wrote: If you change this set only by making C into C#, you'll have something which might be called a synthetic scale.
that's not quite what's going on in ableton. I'd actually never played with "scale" until this morning when I saw this thread. When you shift the "base" it shifts the whole grid.
Ableton's scale works by "rounding" so, like I said above, if you play a D# it will be rounded to either D or E depending on which square is checked. So when you shift the "base" of the scale and send in the same D# it would not be shifted as D# is in the C# scale.
I'm gonna steer clear of "scale" from now on, too confusing for me. unless flowdesigner gives us more info on the melody, the answer to question is, *drumroll*:
D) cannot be determined from the information given
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- KVRist
- 112 posts since 13 Dec, 2011
jancivil wrote:All seven of these ecclesiastical modes will be the same set of seven tones, differently ordered, seven ways, deriving seven 'modes'
You will notice that there is a series of intervals in any scale. This will simply shift as you change which *tonic*, ie., change which *mode*.
Aeolian: A B C D E F G [A]. whole/half/whole/whole/half/whole/[whole]. or tone/semitone/tone/tone/s.t./tone/[tone]
Locrian: B C D E F G A . half/whole/whole/half/whole/whole/[whole].
Ionian: C D E F G A B [C]. whole/whole/half/whole/whole/whole/[half].
right on, learn what modes are. don't worry about how ableton's plugin works. it's not thinking about modes, just a conditional pitch shifter.
It can also help to think of modes as "inversions" of scales. Exactly like how CEG (root) EGC (first inversion) GCE - second, etc
CDEFGAB - first mode
DEFGABC - second mode
the same scale, just starts on a different note
jancivil is right, don't rely on technology
that being said, Schwarzonator II looks amazing. I can't wait to try it out and chain it up to Catanya... multitrack jazz improv in real-time? yes please
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
it surely is going to be more useful in the long run to learn the theory than learn the conditions of that software's paradigm just to force results from it.
CDEFGAB - first mode
DEFGABC - second mode
the same scale, just starts on a different note
But be thoroughgoing. While Aeolian is mode 6 vis a vis Ionian, Ionian is mode 3 vis a vis Aeolian...
CDEFGAB - first mode
DEFGABC - second mode
the same scale, just starts on a different note
But be thoroughgoing. While Aeolian is mode 6 vis a vis Ionian, Ionian is mode 3 vis a vis Aeolian...
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- KVRer
- 2 posts since 13 Dec, 2011
good luck