KVR Audio

xavier · Post by **xavier** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:23 pm

Hi,

There is a problem regarding the GUI (very slow when browsing the presets, some time very slow knob movements) on some computers running windows7.
As I'm currently working on the last x64 things for the Synthix, I will have a look and fix this (I hope during the next following days)

@Selfik : the crash is fixed (available on the incoming new version)

So more new to come soon !

Best regards
Xavier
Xils-lab

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:41 pm

I'm not getting slowdowns but I do find the gui very fiddly to work with. A) it would be nice if it had bigger knobs and was better spaced out (maybe a large size mode) and B) I still keep running into the "read only" tooltips when I try and tweak a knob and forget a layer is not unlocked. I don't know a simple way round this but it tends to reduce my motivation and creativity when I feel I'm fighting the interface or have to remember to check certain options each time and I would rather just have a single set and forget option to unlock the layer that has focus or something rather than fiddle around with rightclicking and having to use mouse modifiers. It would also help if it was clearer which layer is actually making the sound - although there is the visual cue of a red line around unlocked layers it's not easy to know which layer is creating the sound I want to edit - in fact many presets seem to open with a different square selected but I'm not sure if that means that is the layer being used or not. The relationship between layers and the sound is very unclear.

metrosonic · Post by **metrosonic** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:00 pm

I've bought and loved every XILS Lab synth that has come out but must admit that the Synthix is a pain to programme when using layers. I've recently been comparing the difference's in user experience between the Synthix and Arturia's new SEM emulation - I'm aware they're very different architectures but the elegance of the eight voice programmer, mod matrix and keyboard follow modules really help with keeping complexity at bay whilst always providing great visual feedback as to what's going own within complex patches.

I've seen a number of people selling their Synthix license's because of it's complex nature. This is a real pity because the Synthix is wonderful instrument that in my view could really benefit with some new thinking with regard to the user experience.

Any criticisms are voiced out of love for the instrument; I just wish it was less frustrating to work with.

JM
------------
http://soundcloud.com/leftside-wobble

xavier · Post by **xavier** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:54 am

Hi,

Criticisms are welcome and useful : they always help to improve our products and the way we are thinking plug-ins. So don't be afraid to post your loves and hates

For the "locked layer" problem : at the time there is only one option which enable or disable layer writing at launch (option->misc->Layer Locked at launch).
I think an other option would be great and useful for automation : allowing layer modification, but keeping the layer differences.
This is scheduled, but I'm not sure I will release it for the next version (problem on windows 7 are to urgent, x64 compatibility too, to postpone an new version)

About the GUI size : We will check this or maybe find a new idea to offer a powerful multilayer feature while keeping a simple way to program it.

Best regards
Xavier

Lotuzia · Post by **Lotuzia** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:34 am

aMUSEd wrote:I'm not getting slowdowns but I do find the gui very fiddly to work with. A) it would be nice if it had bigger knobs and was better spaced out (maybe a large size mode) and B) I still keep running into the "read only" tooltips when I try and tweak a knob and forget a layer is not unlocked. I don't know a simple way round this but it tends to reduce my motivation and creativity when I feel I'm fighting the interface or have to remember to check certain options each time and I would rather just have a single set and forget option to unlock the layer that has focus or something rather than fiddle around with rightclicking and having to use mouse modifiers. It would also help if it was clearer which layer is actually making the sound - although there is the visual cue of a red line around unlocked layers it's not easy to know which layer is creating the sound I want to edit - in fact many presets seem to open with a different square selected but I'm not sure if that means that is the layer being used or not. The relationship between layers and the sound is very unclear.

Hi Stephen,

I'll try to adress several points to answer you, but first an overall statement :

1/ What we tried to do with the Synthix was the (afaik) only existing MultiLayer and MultiTimbral synth within a Single Panel GUI. So the ideas behind the locked layers were that : Synthix should be able to operate in Simple ( One layer for all voices ) and Complex ( up to 8 different Layers )Modes. And that something should warn people when they edit "complex" patches so that they dont destroy the preset totally while turning a simple Knob ( Wich is very likely to happen if all the layers were editable via the only "visible" panel on the GUI )

The Synthix can be incredibly powerfull/complex and have depth in programming. And really I dont know any other synth which is able to make a huge 8 Layers lead with so many totally new modulations and modules available.

But like often power is at the price of complexity.

Now the answers :

For the relationship between voice, Layers, playing modes :

I think the best thing to keep in mind is that the basis of all the SYnthix architecture are the multiple Play Modes (wich also make it so expressive and unique )

So the first thing is to determine a Play Mode because it affects how many voices will be played for each triggered note, and how these voices will be played. For example if you choose to use both upper and Lower Keyboards with a reset play mode, and if the Midi Range of both Keyboards covers all the keyborad range, you have a perfect Layer Mode, and each played note wil trigger two voices, one on each keyboard.

Once the PlayMOde and Keyboards are choosen, you have to affect voices to them. This is done by clicking and lit on the small squares of the voices. So if you want a split you can assign voices 1/9 to a bass to the lower Keyboard and all the remaining voices to a pad or keys on the Upper Keyboard.

Once the voices are activated, the layers will play, according to their destination. So what layer plays ( to finally answer your question

) depends on 1/ to what Keyboard the voices are affected to 2/ If the voices are activated or not.

Each time you play a note the squares of the voices wich play this note will flash, and there you can determine wich plays what.

You can also use the Mute and Solo buttons on each layer to ahve a better representation of the architecture of a patch.

SOOoo : The Synthix can be as powerfull as a complete workstation like a M1 or something like that, given the limitations it uses the VA paradigm and not samples sets as sound sources : It has multilayers, a powerfull sequencer, a lot of features, voices management, etc etc. If you remeber the manual of the M1, and how complex it was to use it, there is no mystery left that to master the Synthix in depth, people will have to fully practise and understand the in and hows of the machine. Actually The Synthix is much more powerfull than the M1 in a lot of ways.

This said ........

I agree that some changes could be made to make the Synthix more intuitive, and that some of the solutions we found might not be the more intuitive to use.

Some solutions might be found to adress that, but I think that in any case people can help us in a more meaningfull way and give suggestions if they are aware of the engine, its possibilities, and how it works.

Hence the reason of this post.

We are thinking about the possible modifications we could implement in the Synthix, and we thank everyone for all ideas and suggestions they could contribute with. We'll also propose some things in the future.

Sorry for the long post

LtZ

Lotuzia · Post by **Lotuzia** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:49 am

metrosonic wrote:I've bought and loved every XILS Lab synth that has come out but must admit that the Synthix is a pain to programme when using layers. I've recently been comparing the difference's in user experience between the Synthix and Arturia's new SEM emulation - I'm aware they're very different architectures but the elegance of the eight voice programmer, mod matrix and keyboard follow modules really help with keeping complexity at bay whilst always providing great visual feedback as to what's going own within complex patches.

I've seen a number of people selling their Synthix license's because of it's complex nature. This is a real pity because the Synthix is wonderful instrument that in my view could really benefit with some new thinking with regard to the user experience.

Any criticisms are voiced out of love for the instrument; I just wish it was less frustrating to work with.

JM
------------
http://soundcloud.com/leftside-wobble

Hi JM,

yes I've posted a more in depth answer to Amused, so I wont replicate it here.

Synthix is much more complex than SEM V, with no offense to SEM : There are very simple synths wich "do the Job", like Kork PolySix, synths with average complexity, like the SEM, and synths with a very big programming depth, like the Synthix. All are OK.

Just one example : Synthix is Mulitimbral/MultiLayer, so in a way, if a module was a SEM, it would offer eight totally different SEM modules. And not variations by modulators on only one existing SEM module. It has 4 enveloppes and four LFOs PER layer, with totally innovative and neverseen features. Etc etc etc.

So these are totally different synths, but like I said to Stephen, there might be some things we can do to make things more easy and intuitive on Synthix, and all suggestions are welcomed.

But ... depth in programming will come nevertheless to a certain price, if people want to use the SYnthix to its max possible power.

So the complex thing is to offer on Synthix both simple and complex editing, but in a more intuitive way, wich has probably to do with the layers management, locked layers, visible layer notification on the gui etc etc.

Powerusers will still have to learn the possibilities and dedicate time to master completely the unit, but lesspower_users will have a more more easy life. I think this is the goal that everybody want to achieve if we find the good ideas to implement.

Can we agree to focus on this ?

LtZ

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:59 am

Hi Laurent - thankyou for trying to explain it. I tried using the mute buttons to determine what was playing but even muting all 8 at once patches still play the same. I'm not sure that feature is working.

xavier · Post by **xavier** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:29 pm

aMUSEd wrote:Hi Laurent - thankyou for trying to explain it. I tried using the mute buttons to determine what was playing but even muting all 8 at once patches still play the same. I'm not sure that feature is working.

Hi Stephen,
This was working with the 1.0, but unfortunately disappeared with the 1.0.1

I fixed it yesterday.
This is a nice feature to analyse (or to remember) complex patches.

Best
Xavier

DrWashington · Post by **DrWashington** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:07 am

Xavier,

I have one more thing to add about the MIDI learn functionality: it's very unwieldy. Please, please, please just add standard right-click MIDI learn to Synthix! It just makes things so much easier and quicker. All my favorite and most used synths have this, and all the ones that don't I find I don't use as much, simply because they're more fiddly to program. Having to access a menu for MIDI learn is just not cool. ElectraX does this, too, and it drives me crazy, as I'm constantly opening a browser and going to their website with one mistaken click. Very, highly annoying.

Again: love the way this thing sounds, don't much like how the interface behaves. Your DSP work is brilliant, but your interfaces could certainly feel more intuitive!

Thanks for listening!

xavier · Post by **xavier** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:33 pm

Hi DrWashington,

I agree this part should (and will) be improved.
For me keeping the right click to get more precision is very important (right click, left click, you still have the same action, only the precision is changing).

Actually for MIDI assignation, you just have to "ctrl+alt+cmd" + click on your parameter. This will open the MIDI panel with the correct parameter already selected. Click on learn and move your MIDI CC. It's done.

But what could be done is automatically enable the learn feature. In that way after ctrl+alt+cmd +clic, just move you MIDI CC.

Maybe these three key modifiers are to much. So I could change them by Ctrl+click only (and a double click to return to the memorized default value).
I also could not open the MIDI panel automatically.

An other way, but maybe not so obvious : a simple click on a parameter and while you keep it hold, moving a CC will affect it.

let me know (you and others) what do you think.

Best regards
Xavier

_leras · Post by **_leras** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:36 pm

electro · Post by **electro** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:58 pm

Synthix Laser Harp

Synthex Laser Harp

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:15 pm

electro wrote:Synthix Laser Harp

Synthex Laser Harp

God what a boring sound! What's the fuss about anyway?

Fritze · Post by **Fritze** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:01 pm

Lotuzia wrote:
DrWashington wrote:This really, really needs to be fixed. I'm sorry, but positive reviews these days for soft synths are really a dime a dozen. What makes a synth a keeper is that it's truly usable, that it doesn't ANNOY you when you're trying to get stuff done.

I really hope xils lab gets behind this and makes good. Otherwise, I'm going to have sell my (just bought) copy. The competition these days is just too strong to settle for products that aren't up to snuff. This, in its current state, clearly is not.

I just bought Diva, and it's unbelievable. I'm getting none of these kinds of issues, and the sound is thrillingly good. Costs a lot in terms of CPU, but it sounds phenomenal! No annoyances at all so far, and is very easy to program.

Xils Lab: please step up and actually finish Synthix. This is not a finished product in its current form, sadly. There is no WAY jerky, sluggish knobs should have made it into a 1.0 release. I for one am very disappointed!

Hi Dr Washington,

Yes like I said we'll get behind.

Regarding Diva and Synthix, these are some completely different synths. I wont point out once again all the things that make these synths different, today I will only point out what make them in a way similar :

I just choose two examples from some recent threads ( 24-25 december ) about the 1.0 Diva ( ... only as you said a 1.0 should be perfect, and referenced Diva as an example ) :

ddeez wrote:have the newest version 1.0 (bought it)...cubase 32 bit 6.05 win 7 64 bit intel i7 i start up a second diva and it imediately emits a super high pitched tone out of my right speaker and cubase freezes. ??? This doesn't always happen but it just did.

Want to add i can't even start my task manager to close cubase...oh and I can't open itunes now either

mleghorn wrote:Diva 1.0 64-bit barely works in my host -- Sonar X1, Windows 7 64-bit. It seems that whenever I press a note twice, the sound becomes extremely distorted and degenerates into loud random static. The problem is worse with some patches more than others....
SOoo what can we get as a philosophy for this ? :

I'm very glad for you that you're not in all the bad percentage of users who experience problems with this or that synth combined with this or that host on this or that OS. This probably means that you dont live on the ruins of an ancient Azteq graveyard, and that there's fortunately no curse

As a beta tester for numerous synths and many companies, I'm unfortunately used to see messages like this. I myself have some problems atm with a very big synth that seems to work ok for a lot of people, but not on my system ( Not Xils nor U-he btw ) though I have a rather important number of synths working perfectly ok on all my systems. So even very big companies ( wich U-he and Xils are not ) have this kind of problems.

But please understand that things like this can happen in the software world, and worse than that, they DO happen, so it probably should not be seen as a proof of amateurism form Xils, but more likely a complete lack of luck on your side.

This said, we still are very sorry to see that with the Synthix however you have trouble. Now that the problem has been identified, we'll try to adress it and fix it asap, and if we cant, stay assured we'll offer you a solution.

Best,

LtZ

This is a very professional answer, Laurent. I wholeheartedly agree and support what you wrote. This is the worst case that has happened to a lot of developers here or there. I saw it happen to all the big companies out there. It's the nightmare of every developer and every professional tester.
And it's very cool to see how responsive you Xil-Labs people are!

I wish you all big success and a happy new year!

_leras · Post by **_leras** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:40 pm

electro wrote:Synthix Laser Harp

Synthex Laser Harp

You've not picked a link of the sounds from the track which is a lot more rich and broody. I'm not hung up on that particular track, but I can't get anywhere near these two examples.....

<youtube>7EmNBrIt_CE</youtube>

<youtube>WmYByacTssM</youtube>

which is just a real shame.....

SYN'X 2.5 Released - Xils-Lab - (Multitimbral Synthex - intro discount-)