Diva Vs. Real Analog

[goldenanalog]

This is an absolute: Computer tech will keep advancing, providing us all with improved tools. I think as a guy that's been at it for nearly 4 decades that if I want to remain relevant, I must if not carry the torch for new. technologies, at least be as immersed in them as possible.

People: I can substantiate why analog hardware is being phased out in favor of digital; and it isn't just cost.

And: There will always be a retro movement. Yin and Yang

[musikmachine]

I thought modern analog was making a comeback, dsi et al.

[zerocrossing]

I don't really care whether it faithfully reproduces analog or not

Then why did you start this thread?

[cryophonik]

It's so liberating to not give a rat's ass about how well software emulates hardware. I love that I can just open a synth and enjoy it on its own merits.

[Gonga]

I have a few of the classic vintage analogs (minimoog, memorymoog, prophet 5, ms20 etc.) . I also have a Virus TI and tried the newer moog products (little phatty and voyager).

When I compared the new moogs with the old ones , I was immediately turned off.
The sound and feel was so different (clean , lifeless, watered down ) that I sold them soon after.
Diva on the other hand is wonderful ! It can be very similar to the old synths , but also very different and more modern thanks to all virtual extras.

I would pick Diva any day over most new hardware synths out now , it's just that good to me.

Great post!

I too am an "old analog guy" who has owned and played numerous classic analogs and loved them. I more recently owned a Voyager RME and it sounded terrible - the high freq pitch bends were heavily zippered (possibly because of the midi control of the RME - Moog never answered my questions as to why it was happening).

Listen here:

http://danling.com/studio/sounds/RME&Triton.wav

There are two examples an octave apart. First you hear the interval with glide / portamento (sounds good), immediately followed by pitch bend of the same interval (bad zippering). This is a big sound problem with the Voyager that has never been fixed. I asked repeatedly for a fix but it never came. Diva, ACE and Zebra all sound considerably more smooth than Voyager for pitch bending. (On the other hand under some circumstances, it may be possible to create aliasing with them though which the Voyager will not exhibit).

Now I still enjoyed playing bass with the Voyager for awhile, but when I got Zebra, I had an instrument that kicked bass butt and sounded better in the high freqs too. It sounded different, but higher quality in some ways. It had a great attack too, imo the best attack of all VAs to this day (including Diva - I don't hear it's attack measure up to Zebra, though it's better than any other VA I've played).

Omnisphere is pretty good, but doesn't quite compare to U-He for VA imo. Here's a poor example (lots of effects) of sync sweep with Omnisphere. Note the rough jaggies (most people won't be able to hear the difference). It sounds good, very rich overtones, but you can hear the harsh artifacts:

http://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/synth-as ... trument-an

Now here's the same sort of patch using ACE for one minute (extremely smooth, but low in overtone contect), then Massive (not quite as smooth as ACE, but much smoother than Omni and HUGE in overtones:

http://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/acid-eats-metal

So both sound considerably smoother in the sync sweep dept. than Omnisphere, which is more artifacted. Of course, the artifacts are still a lot lower than most VAs. But to the discerning ear the difference is significant and easily reproduced.

Unfortunately I haven't yet got a similar recording with Zebra (better than any yet mentioned though in my tests) or Diva. Will have comparisons over the coming months.

By the way, my Oberheim FVS-1 used to have a useless quantized sync sweep - (unless you used the VCO input for OSC 2). When it worked. It literally NEVER worked perfectly. Ever. But I loved it still. Analog beasts' best days are surely behind them, but sadly.

So closing this ramble it's a waste of time to compare which is overall "better" blah blah, which is obviously an absurd question in the general, but not with regard to specifics, which can then be addressed reasonably objectively. Still, in many cases the differences are irrelevant depending on the musician, musical use or context. In my case, the differences are musical life vs death. U-He synths are objectively critically important to my particular kind of music, period. I really don't care about the opinions of people who don't think the differences are important enough to even discuss! The reason U-He synths are critical to my music now is that all my favorite lead sounds (including a crystal clear monoph Roland SH-1000 sound and a polyphonic sync sweep I used in the 70s) were not achievable at all for me with any modern synth (including hardware) until U-He came along. So I'm really sorry (NOT) if, like President Reagan, you think "facts are stupid things."

btw I'm a fan of the Phatty. But won't be buying one at this point.

[zerocrossing]

This is an absolute: Computer tech will keep advancing, providing us all with improved tools. I think as a guy that's been at it for nearly 4 decades that if I want to remain relevant, I must if not carry the torch for new. technologies, at least be as immersed in them as possible.

People: I can substantiate why analog hardware is being phased out in favor of digital; and it isn't just cost.

And: There will always be a retro movement. Yin and Yang

I thought modern analog was making a comeback, dsi et al.

If you were standing where I am now, you'd think so.

If you compare the amount of analog synths available (not counting analog modules) to digital (Including VA hardware and software) it would look like analog is hanging on by a thread, but in this same way you could look at high end instruments of any type. For every $2K plus guitar that goes out the door I'm sure a dozen sub $300 ones do... and so it has always been. Good thing the cost and quality of your tools has little to do with the quality of the music you make.

Also, on this topic, you can't run Diva without a computer and judging by how it runs on my machine, you'd better have something that's pretty good... probably shelling out at least $1000-$1500 for good performance... and an audio interface. When you include these things VSTs aren't as cheap as they seem compared to the $400 that would get you into the world of a real analog synth.

But... "being phased out" is a phrase that doesn't seem to describe the new analog instruments being released by a decent number of companies, including behemoths like Korg. While Diva is great, I can hear pretty substantial differences in my meager analog synths that make it worth having them. If I had to sell them to buy food for the baby, I'd still carry on, but I'm glad I don't have a baby.

[dsynth27]

Also, on this topic, you can't run Diva without a computer and judging by how it runs on my machine, you'd better have something that's pretty good... probably shelling out at least $1000-$1500 for good performance... and an audio interface. When you include these things VSTs aren't as cheap as they seem compared to the $400 that would get you into the world of a real analog synth.

But... "being phased out" is a phrase that doesn't seem to describe the new analog instruments being released by a decent number of companies, including behemoths like Korg. While Diva is great, I can hear pretty substantial differences in my meager analog synths that make it worth having them.)

Well said....

[goldenanalog]

two steps forward, 1 step back...

There will always be a market for analog (I was an audio guy before I was a organ/synth guy)...

DSI: Slightly insider info is that they're not seeing the numbers; and Tempest took more then they were planning on.

Here's a term that I've become familiar with:

'Parts Sourcing'...

I personally would love to see analog proliferate, but cost (including cost of ownership) plus several other factors will continue to drive the market (and innovation) in the other direction.

I really really hope that I'm wrong, my friends.

[musikmachine]

It's so liberating to not give a rat's ass about how well software emulates hardware. I love that I can just open a synth and enjoy it on its own merits.

This! Although aren't the developers fanning the flames as they're all trying to emulate analog synths?

[goldenanalog]

Please forgive my hijack; Quickly:

What we need right now is some new engineering blood to supplant (well, supplement) what already exists.

Look who are designing and building analog synths right now: Tom Oberheim. Roger Linn. Dave Smith. Don Buchla.

All olde school. So: Let's say for the sake of argument that your passion is analog synthesis: Where do you go to school to learn the trade? From what I've been lead to believe: Advanced analog circuit design is no longer main stream-sure: Maybe accessible through on-line education, but analog synthesis architecture, especially involving a mixture of analog/digital in order to store I/E values, can be pretty tricky. Ask anyone who's done it.

So: You'll still need the olde school guys to get you going. And help you troubleshoot as you roll.

I see a truly fundamental need: If someone was willing (and the world might only need one guy-like an Urs) to devote the bulk of his/her working life re-imagining the CEM chipset-employing 'improvements' that bring necessary randomness, stability, and parts reduction/simplification to digitally-programmed VC'd analog synthesizer circuits...my hope is that that individual would become a billionaire.

Well....millionaire. More realistic.

[musikmachine]

This is an absolute: Computer tech will keep advancing, providing us all with improved tools. I think as a guy that's been at it for nearly 4 decades that if I want to remain relevant, I must if not carry the torch for new. technologies, at least be as immersed in them as possible.

People: I can substantiate why analog hardware is being phased out in favor of digital; and it isn't just cost.

And: There will always be a retro movement. Yin and Yang

I thought modern analog was making a comeback, dsi et al.

If you were standing where I am now, you'd think so.

If you compare the amount of analog synths available (not counting analog modules) to digital (Including VA hardware and software) it would look like analog is hanging on by a thread, but in this same way you could look at high end instruments of any type. For every $2K plus guitar that goes out the door I'm sure a dozen sub $300 ones do... and so it has always been. Good thing the cost and quality of your tools has little to do with the quality of the music you make.

Also, on this topic, you can't run Diva without a computer and judging by how it runs on my machine, you'd better have something that's pretty good... probably shelling out at least $1000-$1500 for good performance... and an audio interface. When you include these things VSTs aren't as cheap as they seem compared to the $400 that would get you into the world of a real analog synth.

But... "being phased out" is a phrase that doesn't seem to describe the new analog instruments being released by a decent number of companies, including behemoths like Korg. While Diva is great, I can hear pretty substantial differences in my meager analog synths that make it worth having them. If I had to sell them to buy food for the baby, I'd still carry on, but I'm glad I don't have a baby.

Diva, synth squad etc all sound great but even with a fast enough cpu i'm not sure i'd replace my mopho with them. I say not sure cause I can't really harness the power of them! I would like a few more analog synths but with the convenience of software and the price to quality ratio of software and lack of integration, well I could get omnisphere for less. You really need a fast machine these days anyway for anything serious but I think you can build a decent system for a few hundred dollars/pounds and you still need that system to record and arrange your performances.
All that being said i'd love a few analogue synths and drum machines but it's not practical for me right now and the convenience and integration of maschine is great but boy is my cpu feelin the pain!

[randyandyvandaman]

Rupert Neve recently turned 80 and is still producing the goods. Some of his recent work has been extraordinary.

There is a reason companies like Manley Labs, Great River Electronics, Audient all exist.

Thats because there is a steady demand for their product.

Like Zero Crossing said that for every analogue synth or console that goes out the door 5-10 copies of the latest vst and other software go with it.

Fortunately for those in the real world HW and SW can coexist and I firmly believe that a hybrid system is still the best approach.

As far as synths go Korg still has its finger in the analogue pie albeit a small one.

Its also highly unlikely that new school guys will go anywhere near a circuit board other than to measure a waveform with an oscilloscope.

These guys are number crunchers not solderers and if they were any good they;d be working for NASA.

Last year Roger Linn won a Grammy for his work with hardware and his contribution to music.

Cheers

[galaxiesmerge]

This is an absolute: Computer tech will keep advancing, providing us all with improved tools. I think as a guy that's been at it for nearly 4 decades that if I want to remain relevant, I must if not carry the torch for new. technologies, at least be as immersed in them as possible.

People: I can substantiate why analog hardware is being phased out in favor of digital; and it isn't just cost.

And: There will always be a retro movement. Yin and Yang

I thought modern analog was making a comeback, dsi et al.

If you were standing where I am now, you'd think so.

If you compare the amount of analog synths available (not counting analog modules) to digital (Including VA hardware and software) it would look like analog is hanging on by a thread, but in this same way you could look at high end instruments of any type. For every $2K plus guitar that goes out the door I'm sure a dozen sub $300 ones do... and so it has always been. Good thing the cost and quality of your tools has little to do with the quality of the music you make.

Also, on this topic, you can't run Diva without a computer and judging by how it runs on my machine, you'd better have something that's pretty good... probably shelling out at least $1000-$1500 for good performance... and an audio interface. When you include these things VSTs aren't as cheap as they seem compared to the $400 that would get you into the world of a real analog synth.

But... "being phased out" is a phrase that doesn't seem to describe the new analog instruments being released by a decent number of companies, including behemoths like Korg. While Diva is great, I can hear pretty substantial differences in my meager analog synths that make it worth having them. If I had to sell them to buy food for the baby, I'd still carry on, but I'm glad I don't have a baby.

Diva, synth squad etc all sound great but even with a fast enough cpu i'm not sure i'd replace my mopho with them. I say not sure cause I can't really harness the power of them! I would like a few more analog synths but with the convenience of software and the price to quality ratio of software and lack of integration, well I could get omnisphere for less. You really need a fast machine these days anyway for anything serious but I think you can build a decent system for a few hundred dollars/pounds and you still need that system to record and arrange your performances.
All that being said i'd love a few analogue synths and drum machines but it's not practical for me right now and the convenience and integration of maschine is great but boy is my cpu feelin the pain!

I own one of the largest ModCan modular systems (Except for Daft Punk - they own one a bit bigger than mine) and I can assure, there is *no* current way that a VA matches the real deal when it come it comes to weird, accidental, completely crazy patches as of 2012 --- that is not to state that VA will not someday catchup. I own most of the top end analog gear as well as the digital gear, and, have done a lot of film sound work using all instruments so I feel that I can contribute the following:

1) If it sounds good, just use it - who cares how the sound got there: mopho or CS80 or Zebra or DIva or pots and pans in the ktichen - it does not matter.
2) If you want analog non-linearity, analog infinite resolution, no aliasing, analog drift and variance as well as analog real-time capability --- then get a real analog machine, a modular is great --- you will find it a challenge to work with them: my approach is to add the analog sound into the mix with the VA. which for me, has worked well.
3) Listen to all the top sound tracks and songs --- all of them end up going through some analog signal chain or are combining analog players (violinists or other instruments) --- even if it is the speakers which you use to monitor with, ultimately your ears can only deal with analog sound! The Violin and the Guitar will be there centuries from today and no amount of digital cloning will replicate these instruments in the hands of a great performer: I am struggling to learn and work with the Continuum Fingerboard --- the CS80 had poly pressure and poly velocity which led to the expressivity of performance --- I find that with Kyma and the Fingerboard, I can get some of that but what I like the most is combining analog and digital with performance controls --- music is all about performance not just the notes.
4) I purchased ZEBRA and DIVA because they do sound really good as VA's and I also got a SOLARIS because of the hands on performance: the SOLARIS has 32 bit floating point at 96 KHz throughout so it sounds really amazing. However, there are many virtual machines I will not buy because there is no musical integrity in their design: Urs H. deserves a lot of support and I hope his sales will grow because he is a musician as well as an engineer, not just an engineer building instruments so there is thoughtful creativity in the concept and design of his instruments and most important of all, the sound has integrity to it. I cannot think of another word but integrity is a combination of quality that does not degrade in ungraceful ways as you pile on the layers of unit processing.
5) None of what I own means a damn thing - it is about the music and I am still struggling to get there.

So. it does make no difference if you have only a studio of a laptop and some good quality VA synths or a roomful of high end gear --- it is all about how creative you are with what you have. I have been lucky only in that film work and gigging has paid for a lot of my gear, but, that still has no bearing in that I am not able to score like Hans Zimmer who uses the same tools. So, that's my two cents.

FWIW - I am also a coder and thus appreciate the work immensely that people like Urs do

Cheers!

[pdxindy]

Theres a reason why people like George Massenberg have never allowed for the recreation of his products into the digital domain.

Cheers

Cause then he couldn't be as snooty?

Seriously, I do not know enough about high end audio to argue with you about it in the specific, but I think digital will eventually get close enough to satisfy the vast majority of professionals. I use my experience as a professional photographer of many years. I have watched as digital cameras have advanced. At first they were pathetic compared to film. Then bit by bit they equaled or surpassed film in various respects. Right now my little canon point and shoot has more accurate color in a variety of situations than film ever did. Film still has some advantages but year by year they are dropping away.

Same thing with audio... year by year digital is further encroaching on the domain of analog. Perhaps some day it will only be reclusive audiophiles who insist that analog is better

[pdxindy]

Also, on this topic, you can't run Diva without a computer and judging by how it runs on my machine, you'd better have something that's pretty good... probably shelling out at least $1000-$1500 for good performance... and an audio interface. When you include these things VSTs aren't as cheap as they seem compared to the $400 that would get you into the world of a real analog synth.

For me, this gets muddy. I already will have the fast computer for my paid graphics/video/photography work. Music is basically a hobby, though I have done some documentary soundtrack stuff and sound design work.