Diva Vs. Real Analog

[Sascha Franck]

Sascha, last time I checked a computer is made of up parts like cpu's and motherboards etc.

Transistors and semi conductors like those in Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge, Gulftown Etc all require voltage in one direction so essentially are an analogue device.

So therefore you have to host a digital device inside an analogue one.

So Sascha which comes first ? The chicken or the egg!!!

Pardon, but what kind of irrelevant nonsense is that?

Mark my words Sascha the only winners here will be the computer shops when you fan boys have to upgrade your lappie or desktop to host that cpu humgry Diva.

Completely irrelevant again.
Fact is, you can run an entire studio inside a computer for a fraction of the cost compared to what you'd needed just 20 years ago. So I'm absolutely happy to spend some money for a new computer every now and then. And I am just as happy to see software makers taking advance of the additionally available power.

- Sascha

[musikmachine]

This is an absolute: Computer tech will keep advancing, providing us all with improved tools. I think as a guy that's been at it for nearly 4 decades that if I want to remain relevant, I must if not carry the torch for new. technologies, at least be as immersed in them as possible.

People: I can substantiate why analog hardware is being phased out in favor of digital; and it isn't just cost.

And: There will always be a retro movement. Yin and Yang

I thought modern analog was making a comeback, dsi et al.

If you were standing where I am now, you'd think so.

If you compare the amount of analog synths available (not counting analog modules) to digital (Including VA hardware and software) it would look like analog is hanging on by a thread, but in this same way you could look at high end instruments of any type. For every $2K plus guitar that goes out the door I'm sure a dozen sub $300 ones do... and so it has always been. Good thing the cost and quality of your tools has little to do with the quality of the music you make.

Also, on this topic, you can't run Diva without a computer and judging by how it runs on my machine, you'd better have something that's pretty good... probably shelling out at least $1000-$1500 for good performance... and an audio interface. When you include these things VSTs aren't as cheap as they seem compared to the $400 that would get you into the world of a real analog synth.

But... "being phased out" is a phrase that doesn't seem to describe the new analog instruments being released by a decent number of companies, including behemoths like Korg. While Diva is great, I can hear pretty substantial differences in my meager analog synths that make it worth having them. If I had to sell them to buy food for the baby, I'd still carry on, but I'm glad I don't have a baby.

Diva, synth squad etc all sound great but even with a fast enough cpu i'm not sure i'd replace my mopho with them. I say not sure cause I can't really harness the power of them! I would like a few more analog synths but with the convenience of software and the price to quality ratio of software and lack of integration, well I could get omnisphere for less. You really need a fast machine these days anyway for anything serious but I think you can build a decent system for a few hundred dollars/pounds and you still need that system to record and arrange your performances.
All that being said i'd love a few analogue synths and drum machines but it's not practical for me right now and the convenience and integration of maschine is great but boy is my cpu feelin the pain!

I own one of the largest ModCan modular systems (Except for Daft Punk - they own one a bit bigger than mine) and I can assure, there is *no* current way that a VA matches the real deal when it come it comes to weird, accidental, completely crazy patches as of 2012 --- that is not to state that VA will not someday catchup. I own most of the top end analog gear as well as the digital gear, and, have done a lot of film sound work using all instruments so I feel that I can contribute the following:

1) If it sounds good, just use it - who cares how the sound got there: mopho or CS80 or Zebra or DIva or pots and pans in the ktichen - it does not matter.
2) If you want analog non-linearity, analog infinite resolution, no aliasing, analog drift and variance as well as analog real-time capability --- then get a real analog machine, a modular is great --- you will find it a challenge to work with them: my approach is to add the analog sound into the mix with the VA. which for me, has worked well.
3) Listen to all the top sound tracks and songs --- all of them end up going through some analog signal chain or are combining analog players (violinists or other instruments) --- even if it is the speakers which you use to monitor with, ultimately your ears can only deal with analog sound! The Violin and the Guitar will be there centuries from today and no amount of digital cloning will replicate these instruments in the hands of a great performer: I am struggling to learn and work with the Continuum Fingerboard --- the CS80 had poly pressure and poly velocity which led to the expressivity of performance --- I find that with Kyma and the Fingerboard, I can get some of that but what I like the most is combining analog and digital with performance controls --- music is all about performance not just the notes.
4) I purchased ZEBRA and DIVA because they do sound really good as VA's and I also got a SOLARIS because of the hands on performance: the SOLARIS has 32 bit floating point at 96 KHz throughout so it sounds really amazing. However, there are many virtual machines I will not buy because there is no musical integrity in their design: Urs H. deserves a lot of support and I hope his sales will grow because he is a musician as well as an engineer, not just an engineer building instruments so there is thoughtful creativity in the concept and design of his instruments and most important of all, the sound has integrity to it. I cannot think of another word but integrity is a combination of quality that does not degrade in ungraceful ways as you pile on the layers of unit processing.
5) None of what I own means a damn thing - it is about the music and I am still struggling to get there.

So. it does make no difference if you have only a studio of a laptop and some good quality VA synths or a roomful of high end gear --- it is all about how creative you are with what you have. I have been lucky only in that film work and gigging has paid for a lot of my gear, but, that still has no bearing in that I am not able to score like Hans Zimmer who uses the same tools. So, that's my two cents.

FWIW - I am also a coder and thus appreciate the work immensely that people like Urs do

Cheers!

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying my setup is a match for high end modular but it works for me for now. You hit the nail on the head about being creative with what you've got, and enjoying it.

I've got a kinda tunnel vision right now about getting better at this music lark. I don't know where it'll take me but i'm enjoying the ride. If i make some money then i'll put that back into music to further my development.

But for now the options in software are vast and limitless, i just picked up synth squad in the sale and it's amazingly powerful, i've barely scratched the surface of what it can do. It could be a good training ground for the modcan modular i'll have one day.

Btw i bought the mopho to put this whole analog emu thing to rest cause of all the debates. It does have a character that i have found hard to replicate with software but i think it's a pretty unique synth anyway. I wouldn't mind a full analog though like a doepfer dark energy, maybe this year...

You mention the expressiveness, that's one of the reasons i have maschine, it's possible to be creative and expressive with hands on control itb so it blurs the line between hard and soft.

I think Urs has raised the bar in the software world and he's part of the reason things have improved so much in the past few years. Devs like him and Fxpansion are pushing the envelope of what's possible with software imho. YMMV.

[pdxindy]

What killed my interest in snob audio was when individual audio critics were exposed to, and failed controlled scientifically-approached double-blind tests.

Translated: You hear what you want to hear-that many (if not all) of us fall victim to marketing.

It should be easy to recognize that most VA synth lack in the low frequencies in comparison to a real analog synth.
Two which do quite well in this area are U-He Diva and Xils Synthix but they are still not on par with a real analog synth. I was only able to compare with my Moog Slim Phatty which could produce low freqencies that are close to destroy your speakers, especially with the filter overload turned up.
At last years Musikmesse i was testing the awesome Schmidt Eightvoice monster analog synth. The soud which came out of the speakers literally blew me away. It was like if the sound was going through my whole body. This feeling is still hard to get from a softsynth but i had it once with a preset (i guess my own one) in Xils Synthix and a little less with Diva so maybe we are really closer than i thought...

Conclusion: I love digital and softsynths but there are still a few things where real analog synth are superior. Anyway synths like Synthix and Diva are a big step forward. I would also not like to decide between those two as they are really different in terms of features and sound.


Ingo

See, analog is slowly getting backed into the corner... you had to fall back on an exotic $25,000 analog synth to hold those pesky soft synths at bay!

There is no doubt that analog has some raw sonic advantage still, but the gap is steadily shrinking.

Interestingly, it is Bazille that has made me actually consider getting a modular system. It is so much fun! Diva is so much more powerful and flexible than a Minimoog that the later has no interest for me.

There is a point at which the sound quality is good enough that sonic versatility and flexibility become more important. Diva is close enough sound quality wise that its complex abilities of polyphony, unison, modulation, multiple filter types etc makes the original unexciting.

[pdxindy]

We know how close our models are to the references we have, and the only thing that can change that is the corrosion in our little synth museum

What?!?! You didn't model time degradation? I was expecting that over time Diva would develop some quirks and then I would have to pay a maintenance fee to have her refurbished!!

[Ingonator]

It should be easy to recognize that most VA synth lack in the low frequencies in comparison to a real analog synth.
Two which do quite well in this area are U-He Diva and Xils Synthix but they are still not on par with a real analog synth. I was only able to compare with my Moog Slim Phatty which could produce low freqencies that are close to destroy your speakers, especially with the filter overload turned up.

Just curious, have you tried running the Slim Phatty through your soundcards converters? It might be that the D/A's are not capable of producing a rich, focused bass. It happens to me when using a digital processor on a bass guitar.

Never really had that problem IMO. The converters in my Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP seem to be quite good and with more high end audio interfaces (and/or extra high end A/D converters) it should be even better. Anyway you loose a bit when converting to MP3 which is also based on compression. This seems to be one thing where Audio CDs are still superior in comparison to e.g. MP3 or AAC.

BTW i'm aware that the Slim Phatty is no exact replication of a Minimoog and therefore could also not compared 1:1 to Diva (like i already mentioned...).
Anyway the Slim Phatty has some advantages which could not be denied:

- price (i paid 799 Euros incl. VAT and now it could be purchased even cheaper)
- patch memory (100 places)
- size (19" rack/desktop module)
- possibility to create a poly-chain with up to 12 (or 16) units
- USB connection and editor software
- MIDI IN/OUT/THRU
- ADSR envelopes (instaed of ADSD in the Mini)
- Osc Sync
- switchable filter poles (1-4 = 6dB/oct to 24dB/oct)
- adjustable filter overload (this could create some really FAT sounds)
- continuous waveforms selector (could be modulated)
- "real" LFO (instead of 3rd oscillator in "LO" mode)
- additional modulations (you could also switch mod sources 5 + 6 to S&H or Noise)
- built-in Arpeggiator
- autotune feature
- audio input (Mono) to use it as a filterbank

Diva got most of those features too which is why i'll soon try to replicate a bunch of presets i had created on my Slim Phatty.


Ingo

[Fritze]

Analog sound is great but the workflow absolutely SUCKS.. Diva brings the sound of analog in the superior format of digital plugin workflow. It doesn't get any better than that.

Yeah but at the cost of some serious cpu.

Yeah, everybody wants it all and for free.

[olikana]

till Diva every sofysynth was flawed.
and by flawed i mean that in softsynths not even the filters were behaving correctly: as there was noticeable filter feedback lag introduced (for former dsp limitations) which would lead to smudged modulation and the infamous "plastic sound" often associated with softsynths and VAs.
this didn't matter much in modulations with moderate/large decay times (and go figure developers always made their comparisons with slow sweeps) ...but in any fast decay modulation and with some resonance u would feel something was not quite right.

btw i am one of the ones who has been into arguments about analog vs softsynths for years on this forum..and always in favour of analogs.
softsynths ,till Diva came along, were not good enough for certain sounds (for 80s punchy sounds -which are my passion- i was FORCED to buy some analog).

NOW i have no major complaints with software anymore....or at least none that woould make me pick any real analog over the commodity of using software . i can make those same sounds in Diva to some satisfaction,finally.

btw i mentioned this filter feedback lag issue for years before Diva was even released or conceived...so i knew that if a softsynth addressed this issue it would deliver analog like sound (at least analog like filters). i ain't no fanboy jumping on the bandwagon. it's just that a technical issue got finally addressed and Diva was first softsynth to do so, at least natively.

Diva might not perfect...but at least i can shape the sounds without any unwanted added delay and 99% of the analog sound is there (even the FM/cross modulation which was full of aliasing on release got improved to a very usable status).

[musikmachine]

Analog sound is great but the workflow absolutely SUCKS.. Diva brings the sound of analog in the superior format of digital plugin workflow. It doesn't get any better than that.

Yeah but at the cost of some serious cpu.

Yeah, everybody wants it all and for free.

Que?

[ariston]

We know how close our models are to the references we have, and the only thing that can change that is the corrosion in our little synth museum

What?!?! You didn't model time degradation? I was expecting that over time Diva would develop some quirks and then I would have to pay a maintenance fee to have her refurbished!!

Shhht, you're giving away the biggest secret about Diva! I just know that some of those knobs will come off with time, and don't forget the accumulated dust and grit making its way into the sliders... and I'm sure almost every analogue synth has had to drink a beer or two during its lifetime...

[Fritze]

Omnisphere is pretty good, but doesn't quite compare to U-He for VA imo. Here's a poor example (lots of effects) of sync sweep with Omnisphere. Note the rough jaggies (most people won't be able to hear the difference). It sounds good, very rich overtones, but you can hear the harsh artifacts:

http://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/synth-as ... trument-an

Now here's the same sort of patch using ACE for one minute (extremely smooth, but low in overtone contect), then Massive (not quite as smooth as ACE, but much smoother than Omni and HUGE in overtones:

http://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/acid-eats-metal

So both sound considerably smoother in the sync sweep dept. than Omnisphere, which is more artifacted. Of course, the artifacts are still a lot lower than most VAs. But to the discerning ear the difference is significant and easily reproduced.

Funny is, that I love both sounds for what they are. And the raw screaming qualitites of the Omnisphere sound is more appealing to me. Minus the aliasing that is which is very loud at the high notes.

[Fritze]

I own one of the largest ModCan modular systems (Except for Daft Punk - they own one a bit bigger than mine) and I can assure, there is *no* current way that a VA matches the real deal when it come it comes to weird, accidental, completely crazy patches as of 2012 --- that is not to state that VA will not someday catchup. I own most of the top end analog gear as well as the digital gear, and, have done a lot of film sound work using all instruments so I feel that I can contribute the following:

1) If it sounds good, just use it - who cares how the sound got there: mopho or CS80 or Zebra or DIva or pots and pans in the ktichen - it does not matter.

5) None of what I own means a damn thing - it is about the music and I am still struggling to get there.

So. it does make no difference if you have only a studio of a laptop and some good quality VA synths or a roomful of high end gear --- it is all about how creative you are with what you have. I have been lucky only in that film work and gigging has paid for a lot of my gear, but, that still has no bearing in that I am not able to score like Hans Zimmer who uses the same tools. So, that's my two cents.

FWIW - I am also a coder and thus appreciate the work immensely that people like Urs do

Cheers!

Thanx for that. Very refreshing to read things like this every now and then.

[Fritze]

What killed my interest in snob audio was when individual audio critics were exposed to, and failed controlled scientifically-approached double-blind tests.

Translated: You hear what you want to hear-that many (if not all) of us fall victim to marketing.

Noice one! I love ABX tests. They are so... revealing.

OK: galaxiesmerge's post was quite good; but I would argue that to say: I own XYZS but you really don't need XYZS is like the guy with a million dollars who says that you really don't need a million dollars; you can get by on pots and pans. LOL!

Actually, galaxiesmerge is quite right; except for one minor detail:

We ALL want the good shit. Don't deny it. All of us do. But: most can't afford it; can't maintain it; don't have the space; don't really need large, heavy 'furniture' either in the way; or too heavy to move; etc.

Right. I want the good shit. But not in the form or a current eating like there's no tomorrow, monophonic, no patch saving wall of cupboard modular.
All inside one laptop. With 1k times the CPU power than I have right now.

[jupiter8]

Right. I want the good shit. But not in the form or a current eating like there's no tomorrow, monophonic, no patch saving wall of cupboard modular.
All inside one laptop. With 1k times the CPU power than I have right now.

Patience young padawan , we'll get there soon enough.

[Fritze]

All you'll get with the digital one is color and not character like analogue.

Nonsense. The "character" you are talking about is the erratic behaviour of analogue stuff.
What makes up for "musical character" is musical talent and quality equipment, nothing else. And digital equipment has proven more than once that it can deliver quality just perfectly.
We're not exactly "there" yet (wherever "there" might be...) but we're getting close. TONS of things that have been done in the analogue realmfor ages have already been replaced by digital items. And most others (no, make that "all") that theoretically can be replaced will follow.
FWIW: I have been at the Frankfurt Musikmesse when VST 2 was introduced. People laughed their asses off at the cheap sounds good ol' "Neon" produced. Not even 5 years later and you could hardly find a studio with a hardware sampler anymore. Unless they are built into some workstation for live purposes, hardware samplers are dead. Completely DEAD!
Similar things are already true for a whole lot of other things the vast majority of successful music has been produced with during the last, say, decade.
And everything (!) else will follow.

There is a reason companies like Manley Labs, Great River Electronics, Audient all exist.

Thats because there is a steady demand for their product.

Plain nonsense again. All that is left is a small amount of elite producers that can stil afford these things. Again, the vast majority of producers is already leaving the sinking ship. The sales figures for almost all analogue musical equipment are shrinking. There might be the occasional exception here and there, for good reasons even (as an example, an analogue input mixer is still a good thing to have at times, so is a Marshall Plexi), but these will dwindle away eventually. There's just no way around it, the convenience, price and performance of digital can't be beaten.

If some of you cant tell the difference between when an analogue compressor kicks in compared to a digital one well then you know the rest of the story.

Not only is this an arrogant statement, but it also shows that you have no clue and are strictly talking out of your ass.
People have been fooled in numerous ABX tests already and the number is increasing.
Heard of the KPA (Kemper Profiling Amplifier) yet? Unfortunately I couldn't get my hands on one so far, but there's already been some quite experienced guitar players that have been fooled into thinking it was whatever original amp in blind tests. Now, when you can already emulate something like an overdriven tube guitar amp perfectly, why shouldn't you be able to emulate whatever compressor perfectly? Essentially, both the tube amp and the compressor are doing the same thing, just that a compressor will probably be way easier to capture.

As u-he have already proven, as long as it sounds good, the cpu consumption is not an issue.

The only thing that U-he has proven is that most of his products are CPU intensive. Remember Ace!!!!

So far, most things emulating analogue stuff more or less identically are munching CPU power for breakfast. And that's precisely the reason why many analogue items are still in use.
In ten years (at best) all that will be no issue anymore.

Whatever, making a swift general statement like U-He stuff using much CPU power shows how little you know. I'd say that his most successful product has to be Zebra. And Zebra is extremely reasonable in terms of CPU useage. The same goes for Filterscape, MFM2, etc.

- Sascha

Yeah. These down to earth facts should keep this thread alive for some more pages. Nothing kicks like the truth.

[Fritze]

See, analog is slowly getting backed into the corner... you had to fall back on an exotic $25,000 analog synth to hold those pesky soft synths at bay!

Noice one!