The Rhythmic Divide

[rachmiel]

speakFathom speaks:

http://rachmiel.org/blog/

which side of the Rhythmic Divide are you on?

[Bronto Scorpio]

I guess I like more abstract rhythms. As I said in the other thread, I listen to a lot of Autechre, Richard Devine etc.
I like when rhythms don't follow the common "rules" but are catchy/groovy nontheless. I love to listen to Autechre while taking a walk though a forrest in the middle of the night and things like that
It really helps to shut the brain down. I don't get that effect with common 4 on the floor rhythms. I guess they are just to predictable and often don't really evolve.

Don't want to hijack the thread but here is something I'm working on at the moment: Undefined

It's just the rhythm section.
People often seem to think that a lot of randomness is involed in this kind of music but that's really not true (there is not a single random element in this snippet and all sounds were designed from scratch). It's often a lot of work.

Cheers
Dennis

[jancivil]

two words: false dichotomy.

[Zombie Queen]

Yup, it doesn't matter it it's asymmetric or whatever, if it's good to me, then I like it.

[jancivil]

I have a recording by 'Shankar' (aka Lakshminarayana, 'L' Shankar)... ["Ragam, Tanam, Pallavi; Ragam: Kapi Seethalakshm"]

the tala is 6 3/4 beats. it takes the Carnatic conception of Trikala, which is basically 1:1 [Andrutam], 2:1 [Drutam] and n:1 [Laghu]. the 'permitted' jati for Laghu are 3, 4, 5, 7, 9.

but Shankar goes it further: n:1 might be 1.5 to 1, anything, .75 to 1... taking western conceptions such as dotted quarters vs the pulse as though quarters. 6:1 and 8:1 are redundant here, still, as you may as well say you've doubled the pulse, it's 3 or 4 to 1.

So we consider the time as a diminution or expansion of your given time by fractions or integers or a combination. here, they are doing these at the same time extemporaneously. Now, in this performance they - particularly the drummers, Zakir and Vikku - are taking fragments and reiterating it, holding off the other portion, the remainder of what they have chosen to treat until later and 'resolving' it.

it's ridiculously, insanely complex and they are doing it with a basis of 6 3/4.

It sounds like it could get to be anarchy doesn't it, a real mess. I'll tell you why it doesn't. Everyone knows where ONE is (Also Shankar has his dad there keeping the tala for this one).

[jancivil]

and then some: a single cycle can be long enough to accommodate a complete musical idea. However, two or more cycles are often combined into a longer phrase. When a phrase is completed it is marked by a recurring melodic phrase. That phrase always appears at the same place in the tala cycle and thus marks an important structural point in the tala. This important structural point is one of two such points in the tala cycle. This point, the count in the tala cycle on which a piece, a new section of a piece, or a main phrase of a piece begins, is named eduppu (Tamil language) or graham (sanskrit language). The tala point on which the eduppu falls depends on the composition.

The second important structural point in the tala cycle is inherent in the tala itself. It is count 1, called sam or sama. In the case of Carnatic music, count 1 does not consistently receive special emphasis as an ending point of melodic phrases (due to the importance of eduppu), but the ultimate cadence realized by the drummer is almost always on sama. Cadences at count 1 in Hindustani performances indicate the beginning of a new tala cycle. In Carnatic pieces, however, since cadences can come on any beat, it is more difficult (particularly in even talas like Adi tala) to find your place unless you know the composition.

[jopy]

i think that there's certainly some excellent music that doesn't utilize regular pulsed rhythms, but i also think it's pretty hard to pull that off without it sounding sort of lazy, if you know what i mean. the stuff like jan is talking about definitely has a rhythmic pulse but it's super complex, and that to me is the most interesting of all.

[jancivil]

hmmm... for me there is this whole aspect in 'avant-gardeismo'... anyone can hide behind this 'freedom' idea. I am speaking from experience.

Someone posted a video at facebook the other day, John Zorn, Anthony Braxton, Bill Laswell on bass, Milford Graves on drums... There wasn't any give and take, Laswell seemed to be playing a bass line from some Black Sabbath song, Zorn was in extremis, Graves was storming away... more was less, it was really unlistenable, total anarchy.

anyway, that uber-complex L Shankar piece has a strong pulse throughout, it's just that where the resolutions were overlapping constantly and the main cycle was angular. The main themes as it were define the composition so there's that certainty. Extremely exciting piece. 'Soul Searcher' is the name of the album. Peter Gabriel is listed on keys though there is no evidence of it in the track. So it's in fact serious classical music at that level of intellect albeit with a beat enough for 'Larry' to try and market it more commercially, new age with a beat, I donno.

[jopy]

Someone posted a video at facebook the other day, John Zorn, Anthony Braxton, Bill Laswell on bass, Milford Graves on drums... There wasn't any give and take, Laswell seemed to be playing a bass line from some Black Sabbath song, Zorn was in extremis, Graves was storming away... more was less, it was really unlistenable, total anarchy.

i do like john zorn when he's on and has a group that's on fire like naked city or masada, but i think you could cut down about 75% of his output as "unnecessary" for exactly the reason you're mentioning. a lot of his free improv groups seem to almost be emphasizing how little they can listen to each other.

[hibidy]

What if you like both? Is the fact that I like tempoed/"pulse" grooves better automatically disqualify me?

"Aperiodic" to me would be most drummers I've played with

[trimph1]

Most of the music I listen to has both elements thrown into the scenario so it never is really an either/or thing here.

But then, the way I play I sometimes don't even tune anything either....

[tapper mike]

I likw borh. As for "lazy" the masters never sound lazy. Listen to Bill Evens especially his solo work. He bends time to his will.

[jopy]

I likw borh. As for "lazy" the masters never sound lazy. Listen to Bill Evens especially his solo work. He bends time to his will.

i'm not sure if bill evans's playing would qualify as "un-pulsed" in the sense that rachmiel originally meant, because he definitely has a strong sense of swing even when he's playing more rubato sections. he's a perfect example of someone who plays around with some extremely complex ideas while still maintaining a lot of rhythmic discipline. someone like ornette coleman is playing without a lot of structure oftentimes , but he generally does actually have a very well defined sense of a beat even though the drummer is always hinting around rather than stating the beat:



evan parker and the free improv school of performance might be a better example of completely unpulsed playing:



i don't personally think of evan parker as undisciplined per se, but i do often find myself longing for little sections of more metric pulse in his music to offset the more completely free stuff.

[jopy]

another perspective on the fundamental nature of rhythm:

[jancivil]

a huge area for me is the rhythm of speech. conversational speech, declamatory speech...

outside of meter, I mean not the Elizabethan 'foot', the rhythm per se.

then you can apply what you find there to a pulse, the ways it can scan; instead of taking a bar line as a wall, see it as a marker, a signpost. with varying degrees of importance according to a compositional idea.

you can dance to rhythm. people that don't have a developed sense of rhythm require an emphasis on a beat, and it's a beat you're entrained to, as per emphasis. A lot of people need all four!

"Here's how it works. there's a beat going on like this: that's the pedestrian beat. You don't dance to that beat! You dance to what George sings."