Bitwig Studio announced

[headquest]

Litigation could get messy pretty quickly.

Where does it stop? The split view Clip / session View and Arrange view to the right is straight out of Project 5. But that app takes some things from Live. The Browser looks pretty similar to Studio One's and Sonars...so who can sue who?

How far back do you go? Midi Tracks, Audio tracks, virtual Transport, Clip this clip that, envelopes...plugin types like EQ's and compressors...on an on...the list is almost endless feature wise between pretty much any host. Where would it end?

Any solicitor could pick out all sorts of similaritires and likely make a pretty good case for the Dev they represent. But then so could at least 3 or 4 other devs IMO with thier solicitors. It's a deep fog of issues that might be best left uncharted for now at least.

I think there will be no winners from any litigation. It would damage consumer confidence pretty badly. Few would buy a product that might be knee deep in litigation and might need to be pulled from market as a result of on going litigation.

I would say on the other side of the coin litigation might draw clearer lines as to what belongs to a DAW dev or not but it's such a messy cross woven spider web of features copied, revised, renamed, improved upon e.t.c that is would be close to insane to sort out.

Yes there has been plenty of real innovation amongst dev hosts IMO but...I think the amount of feature crossover and various similarities (some much more than others) is now part of the fabric of Music software development for better or worse.

Perhaps its a case of how long a dev's idea remains unique to them instead of another dev considering litigation. Not saying anyone is but maybe an attempt to remain as exclusive as possible with a feature or set of features should be the goal instead of any litigation.

I guess dev's know when they feel the line is crossed. Maybe Ableton think BW have crossed it. If they feel sales will be lost to a product too similar to theirs...then Litigation will likely draw in more Devs than Ableton and BW to darken the doors of many a solicitors office.

I don't expect there would be any litigation unless the ex-Ableton employees had specifically broken the terms of their Ableton contracts.

Also worth pointing out that the crowd this product is aimed at aren't too stupid to see the likeness, and will form their own conclusions about whether BitWig Studio is innovative or derivative.

[headquest]

I remember when Adobe sued Macromedia over UI similarities and won.

Carey

In that case... maybe Bitwig DO have big problems ahead of them.

[spaceman]

I remember when Adobe sued Macromedia over UI similarities and won.

Carey

In that case... maybe Bitwig DO have big problems ahead of them.

I feel they took it a bit too far. It's just darn right laziness.
Even the midi editor looks the same and the note are the same red.

[headquest]

I feel they took it a bit too far. It's just darn right laziness.
Even the midi editor looks the same and the note are the same red.

Sure, it could simply be laziness or lack of creativity.... but it creates the impression to me that Bitwig are perhaps deliberately goading Ableton, or perhaps bitter about no longer being part of that company. A shame.

[aMUSEd]

Only automation straight lines? Would be an improvement on Live if they offered some spline based curves. Can it record automation fully? (unlike Live only in Arrange view)

[trolling while hiding behind anonymous proxies]

It's not a complaint - it's mainly a question as I can't see them but would like to know if they are there. If not then it's also a request as since it is still in development now would be a good time to let them know what people expect in a modern host.

[headquest]

Several of the most successful "modern hosts" don't have spline based curves (Ableton and Reason 6 don't for a start, and yes I know Reason 6 isn't a host but for your average punter it does similar stuff, simply using its own insttruments/fx). While hosts with spline based curves such as Tracktion 3 bombed. So it's hard to say what "people expect in a modern host". This feature is a request I would agree with, but for most people seems not to be a deal maker/breaker.

[dcfac73]

Sorry, but I haven't followed the earlier comments. This will be off topic, but-if cpu usage is lowish, then I'll def check it out. Plugs like Tremor and Diva use up so much juice- I can only see developers continuing this trend. Would be nice if the host can run them efficiently.

[gckilla]

Several of the most successful "modern hosts" don't have spline based curves (Ableton and Reason 6 don't for a start, and yes I know Reason 6 isn't a host but for your average punter it does similar stuff, simply using its own insttruments/fx). While hosts with spline based curves such as Tracktion 3 bombed. So it's hard to say what "people expect in a modern host". This feature is a request I would agree with, but for most people seems not to be a deal maker/breaker.

That's a fantastic point! I'm going to remember that next time mentions spline based curves.

[Sascha Franck]

Why would you need spline based curves in case you could just draw your own?

- Sascha

[spaceman]

Why would you need spline based curves in case you could just draw your own?

- Sascha

it's a case of going to 11, I believe

[Goratrix]

Regarding the whole story around this, is anyone else her familiar with what happened at NewTek (makers of the 3D software LightWave) ten years ago? This seems to be exactly the same story. In short, the company had a product developed over several years, but further development was not possible because of the old codebase. A complete rewrite from scratch was needed, which the developers wanted to do, but the management would not allow it, as it would require several years of investment. Eventually, the developers split, formed their own company (Luxology), spent several years programming and eventually released a whole new application (Modo). I suspect it was exactly the same with Ableton / Bitwig.

[C.Bennett]

A very interesting comparison Goratrix.

[pwal]

further development was not possible because of the old codebase. A complete rewrite from scratch was needed, which the developers wanted to do, but the management would not allow it, as it would require several years of investment.

there's more than just the abes with an old codebase requiring a rewrite...

[headquest]

Regarding the whole story around this, is anyone else her familiar with what happened at NewTek (makers of the 3D software LightWave) ten years ago? This seems to be exactly the same story. In short, the company had a product developed over several years, but further development was not possible because of the old codebase. A complete rewrite from scratch was needed, which the developers wanted to do, but the management would not allow it, as it would require several years of investment. Eventually, the developers split, formed their own company (Luxology), spent several years programming and eventually released a whole new application (Modo). I suspect it was exactly the same with Ableton / Bitwig.

So just to be clear about what you are speculating here:

You think that perhaps Gerhard Behles, Robert Henke et al have - basically over night - morphed into arch-conservative business suits with no creative vision for the future of music software...

...and that a couple of (actually fairly minor) programmers within their company picked up the mantle and became super-visionaries.

Interesting though your comparison is, I would suggest it is flawed on a number of levels, and suggests that you really don't know much about the experimental musician founders who are very much still in charge at Ableton.

[Bronto Scorpio]

Regarding the whole story around this, is anyone else her familiar with what happened at NewTek (makers of the 3D software LightWave) ten years ago? This seems to be exactly the same story. In short, the company had a product developed over several years, but further development was not possible because of the old codebase. A complete rewrite from scratch was needed, which the developers wanted to do, but the management would not allow it, as it would require several years of investment. Eventually, the developers split, formed their own company (Luxology), spent several years programming and eventually released a whole new application (Modo). I suspect it was exactly the same with Ableton / Bitwig.

So just to be clear about what you are speculating here:

You think that perhaps Gerhard Behles, Robert Henke et al have - basically over night - morphed into arch-conservative business suits with no creative vision for the future of music software...

...and that a couple of (actually fairly minor) programmers within their company picked up the mantle and became super-visionaries.

Interesting though your comparison is, I would suggest it is flawed on a number of levels, and suggests that you really don't know much about the experimental musician founders who are very much still in charge at Ableton.

Robert Henke is still working at Ableton? Nice! I always thought he left it a long time ago
Can't wait for his new LP by the way. The preview sounds amazing again!
Sorry for the OT!

Cheers
Dennis