Low latency audio in Android 4 (Ice Cream Sandwich)

[SingleCell]

Wired magazine claims that Android audio latency problem has been resolved. Here are two quotes from an article on Wired about AudioTool Sketch.

"Latency problems at the core of the Android OS (originally very real, and later exaggerated)... "

"Thankfully, Android's latency problem was resolved, and the upshot is surprisingly capable mobile apps including Audiotool Sketch."

Here is the article:
http://www.wired.com/underwire/2011/12/ ... music-app/

That article was an info-mercial for AudioSketch. Those guys are tightly involved with Google as they were one of the first "apps" on Google chrome. The team behind it are talented guys, but they haven't solved the latency problem. No app can do that, Google has to mandate the hardware to support it.

And like was said, a sequencer is NO way to measure latency.

[IncarnateX]

My point being, if you want a device to do a job - buy one for that job.

How is that advice different from telling someone who want to make tablet (not pc) music with low latency to buy an iDevice and not an Android? Unless you are an apple-hater it seems to be a fair advice for at least two good reasons: They have low latency and there are 100 hundreds of apps more to choose from. In time, Android devices will highly likely be solved, but it isn' t at status quo. However, for programming music and not playing it, you have apps like Caustic, Nanoloop, Jasuto Pro and hopefully Image Line will release FL Mobile for Android in a near future. Do not know how Android handles files betweens apps but I hope they will develope for you apps that can transfer files between them for coorporation like pasteboard transfer does on the iPad.

[UltraJv]

My point being, if you want a device to do a job - buy one for that job.

How is that advice different from telling someone who want to make tablet (not pc) music with low latency to buy an iDevice and not an Android? Unless you are an apple-hater it seems to be a fair advice for at least two good reasons: They have low latency and there are 100 hundreds of apps more to choose from. In time, Android devices will highly likely be solved, but it isn' t at status quo. However, for programming music and not playing it, you have apps like Caustic, Nanoloop, Jasuto Pro and hopefully Image Line will release FL Mobile for Android in a near future. Do not know how Android handles files betweens apps but I hope they will develope for you apps that can transfer files between them for coorporation like pasteboard transfer does on the iPad.

I wouldnt advise buying an idevice specifically for music, although they do have some nice apps currently. Its a closed architecture as IOS dosnt support plugins on any app. Unless Apple change this (very unlikley) then Desktop/Laptop is the clear choice. Android has latency yes but does support plugins. Pros and cons on both sides. Tablets are not a replacement for all.

[IncarnateX]

I wouldnt advise buying an idevice specifically for music, although they do have some nice apps currently. Its a closed architecture as IOS dosnt support plugins on any app. Unless Apple change this (very unlikley) then Desktop/Laptop is the clear choice. Android has latency yes but does support plugins. Pros and cons on both sides. Tablets are not a replacement for all.

Fair enough, but your personal preferences for PCs and plugins are hardly useful answers to someone who wants to make music on touchscreen devices. If the premise is to give the best advice to people who wants to make music on tablets with low latency (whatever there reasons may be), an iDevice is surely the best thing to point at.

[UltraJv]

I wouldnt advise buying an idevice specifically for music, although they do have some nice apps currently. Its a closed architecture as IOS dosnt support plugins on any app. Unless Apple change this (very unlikley) then Desktop/Laptop is the clear choice. Android has latency yes but does support plugins. Pros and cons on both sides. Tablets are not a replacement for all.

Fair enough, but your personal preferences for PCs and plugins are hardly useful answers to someone who wants to make music on touchscreen devices. If the premise is to give the best advice to people who wants to make music on tablets with low latency (whatever there reasons may be), an iDevice is surely the best thing to point at.

As I already said, the answer I give is Desktop/Laptop Mac or PC. anything else is experimental

[IncarnateX]

As I already said, the answer I give is Desktop/Laptop Mac or PC. anything else is experimental

Which may be a valid answer if the question is about whether PCs or iPad are best for making music (disregarding factors such as skills and talent of course) but not if the question is about whether Android or iDevices are best for making music with low latency. At a mobile music forum like this, I therefore think there is a good chance that your advice will be considered useless or maybe a flamebait at best. If someone at KVR told you from his personal preferences that you should drop your plugins and use analog gear only, would you do it? Latency and amount of quality apps are not about preferences but facts.

[UltraJv]

As I already said, the answer I give is Desktop/Laptop Mac or PC. anything else is experimental

Which may be a valid answer if the question is about whether PCs or iPad are best for making music (disregarding factors such as skills and talent of course) but not if the question is about whether Android or iDevices are best for making music with low latency. At a mobile music forum like this, I therefore think there is a good chance that your advice will be considered useless or maybe a flamebait at best. If someone at KVR told you from his personal preferences that you should drop your plugins and use analog gear only, would you do it? Latency and amount of quality apps are not about preferences but facts.

Im going to leave this, its going no where. I see tablets etc as toys. you can make music on A Stylaphone (which is portable) but you wont as its not the "in thing". Thats what this is all about

[IncarnateX]

. I see tablets etc as toys

Jupiii Yet a chance to quote myself:

To the skilled, every toy is a tool.

To the unskilled, every tool is a toy.

Invented especially for KVR. Thank you for the inspiration.

[Sascha Franck]

Personally, I do indeed think of most music apps as toys, especially when using them without any external hardware.
But, and that's the main thing why I love using them: These toys very often become tools. In other words: I just fool around with some "toy" and all of a sudden I have the base for a groove, a melodic/harmonic pattern or even an entire song.
However, if you work more or less "traditionally", such as in really writing and arranging songs, without external hardware mobile devices won't take you far at all. Heck you can't play free chord progressions on any of them, with melodies it's not much better.
But all these things could still be great for inspiration.

And then there's of course all those "helper" tools. They do indeed work as tools. Just think about something such as TouchOSC or Lemur. NO WAY to do that stuff on a laptop, as they are tailored around a touchscreen environment.
So, when it comes to such things, the advice to get a laptop instead would be downright stupid.

And then there's all the sound expanders. Be it effects devices or instruments. I for one love having a small backup rig with me all the time (that'd be Amplitube with an AmpLink adapter - the latter to be replaced soon). Once something breaks in my main rig, I can at least continue playing in a matter of seconds.

- Sascha

[IncarnateX]

Personally, I do indeed think of most music apps as toys, especially when using them without any external hardware.

For electronic music, there are a lot of pro apps.For a start, there are app versions of pc synths like iMS20, Alchemy and Crystal. There are dedicated synths in just about the same quality: Nlog Pro, Synth X (by Wayoutware) Animoog, Sunrizer and Addictive synth (by Virsyn) and there are other interesting and great sounding synths such as Grainscience and and Grainbender.

There are quality drummachine apps such as iElectribe, Molten and MoDrum.

Vocoders like Voix, iVoxel and Voice synth

Vocal units with pitch correction or harmonisation like Voice Jam and improVox

Samplebased studios like Beatmaker 2 and Nanostudio

Audio based studios like Meteor and MultitrackDAW

Mastering units like " Compressor " and those in StudioTrack.

Nothing is missing, unless perhaps some more advanced mastering gear.

That there are lot of crap too is rather irrelevant. The catch is not the quality of the apps, but the workflow, namely pasting audio from one app to the other to finish something. Thus I would never advice anyone to stick to pc because of things like sound quality but rather the workflow if anything at all. To me, however, the mobility and touchscreen are worth it.

[Sascha Franck]

Well, calling things "toys" was probably a little incorrect. But some of them have a sort of toy-ish nature as long as you don't connect external hardware to it. I just love Nanostudio, but without a MIDI keyboard attached, it will remain to be a source for inspiration and/or quick sampling and mangling, rather than being a "real" sequencer.
Now, you may argue that the same is true for a laptop. You may need a MIDI keyboard and audio interface as well.
But then, once I have to connect all these devices anyway (and carry them with me), I could indeed as well just use my regular laptop setup as the idea of being mobile is somewhat taken ad absurdum.

Personally, I'd like to see a lot more apps that would not do traditional things but rather focus on the strength of a) a touchscreen and b) the fact that we're dealing with mobile devices. Lemur and TouchOSC to me are brilliant examples. They expand your setup, partially even in a way that wouldn't be possible without them.
An entirely different thing, yet something else that absolutely makes sense: iRealb. Having a band-in-a-box alike tool running on a mobile phone is just awsome for those into practising instrumental skills.

So far it's more or less that many app makers take existing concepts and try to squeeze them into what basically is a limited environment. This is especially true for sequencing (as said, especially given you don't connect any external hardware). When you really want to do some serious sequencing on an iDevice, there's almost no way around connecting something else.
And yet you're still tortured by what is a ridiculously limited OS. File compatibility, file exchange, file storage, file access - let's face it, iOS is absolutely horrible at all these things, it's almost like back in the Atari days when you had to exit a program, put in another floppy, load a new program, then import stuff from yet another floppy. In some aspects iOS is even worse as for some operations you just *have* to connect the device to a real computer, which sort of vaporizes the mobility aspect. Add to this that storage capacities are laughable compared to what any modern computer is able to deliver, along with the fact that Apple (unlike Google) doesn't allow you to use any external storage devices straight from your iPhone/iPad - all this doesn't make up for a really satisfying computing experience.

Having said all that, for me it's really about some inspirational fun or about apps that are really taking advance of the mobile touchscreen environment. There's certain other things I like a lot, but as is, I will most likely never ever sequence a full song on my iPhone, simply because I have absolutely no plans to buy yet another mobile MIDI keyboard (I got two of them already). Plus, I do of course want to use certain plugins.

- Sascha

[IncarnateX]

Well, calling things "toys" was probably a little incorrect. But some of them have a sort of toy-ish nature as long as you don't connect external hardware to it. I just love Nanostudio, but without a MIDI keyboard attached, it will remain to be a source for inspiration and/or quick sampling and mangling, rather than being a "real" sequencer.
Now, you may argue that the same is true for a laptop. You may need a MIDI keyboard and audio interface as well.
But then, once I have to connect all these devices anyway (and carry them with me), I could indeed as well just use my regular laptop setup as the idea of being mobile is somewhat taken ad absurdum.

Well, I am on an iPad 2 and use the apps internal keyboards and that is indeed not the same as having a good controller Keyboard attatched to it. However, before turning to the iPad, I brought SynthStation25 with me with an iPod touch. Thus I could sit in the train and make people stir when I opened my suitcase, took a keyboard out and attached my iPod to it. Morale: Nothing is impossible now a days. If you want a controller, a touchsceen device AND mobility, SynthStation25 and an iPodTouch or an iPhone is the way to go.

[UltraJv]

Well, calling things "toys" was probably a little incorrect. But some of them have a sort of toy-ish nature as long as you don't connect external hardware to it. I just love Nanostudio, but without a MIDI keyboard attached, it will remain to be a source for inspiration and/or quick sampling and mangling, rather than being a "real" sequencer.
Now, you may argue that the same is true for a laptop. You may need a MIDI keyboard and audio interface as well.
But then, once I have to connect all these devices anyway (and carry them with me), I could indeed as well just use my regular laptop setup as the idea of being mobile is somewhat taken ad absurdum.

Well, I am on an iPad 2 and use the apps internal keyboards and that is indeed not the same as having a good controller Keyboard attatched to it. However, before turning to the iPad, I brought SynthStation25 with me with an iPod touch. Thus I could sit in the train and make people stir when I opened my suitcase, took a keyboard out and attached my iPod to it. Morale: Nothing is impossible now a days. If you want a controller, a touchsceen device AND mobility, SynthStation25 and an iPodTouch or an iPhone is the way to go.

I think we've got the message that you like that kind of setup. Its an expensive solution with limitations. There are better solutions. Touch is irrelevant. I much prefer my Asus Aspire One Netbook with Win7 and standard VSTis. I can use Massive, Traktor etc on it and play using the built in QWERTY keyboard. One third the price, with USB, 100mb network, proper keyboard and full compatibilty, its the same size as ipad. This thread is about Android though. I have an Android Samsung Galaxy S phone. Its great fun but I dont take it seriuosly.

[BMoore]

Well, calling things "toys" was probably a little incorrect. But some of them have a sort of toy-ish nature as long as you don't connect external hardware to it. I just love Nanostudio, but without a MIDI keyboard attached, it will remain to be a source for inspiration and/or quick sampling and mangling, rather than being a "real" sequencer.
Now, you may argue that the same is true for a laptop. You may need a MIDI keyboard and audio interface as well.
But then, once I have to connect all these devices anyway (and carry them with me), I could indeed as well just use my regular laptop setup as the idea of being mobile is somewhat taken ad absurdum.

Well, I am on an iPad 2 and use the apps internal keyboards and that is indeed not the same as having a good controller Keyboard attatched to it. However, before turning to the iPad, I brought SynthStation25 with me with an iPod touch. Thus I could sit in the train and make people stir when I opened my suitcase, took a keyboard out and attached my iPod to it. Morale: Nothing is impossible now a days. If you want a controller, a touchsceen device AND mobility, SynthStation25 and an iPodTouch or an iPhone is the way to go.

I think we've got the message that you like that kind of setup. Its an expensive solution with limitations. There are better solutions. Touch is irrelevant. I much prefer my Asus Aspire One Netbook with Win7 and standard VSTis. I can use Massive, Traktor etc on it and play using the built in QWERTY keyboard. One third the price, with USB, 100mb network, proper keyboard and full compatibilty, its the same size as ipad. This thread is about Android though. I have an Android Samsung Galaxy S phone. Its great fun but I dont take it seriuosly.

You've already lost this discussion twice, let it go, please.

[UltraJv]

Well, calling things "toys" was probably a little incorrect. But some of them have a sort of toy-ish nature as long as you don't connect external hardware to it. I just love Nanostudio, but without a MIDI keyboard attached, it will remain to be a source for inspiration and/or quick sampling and mangling, rather than being a "real" sequencer.
Now, you may argue that the same is true for a laptop. You may need a MIDI keyboard and audio interface as well.
But then, once I have to connect all these devices anyway (and carry them with me), I could indeed as well just use my regular laptop setup as the idea of being mobile is somewhat taken ad absurdum.

Well, I am on an iPad 2 and use the apps internal keyboards and that is indeed not the same as having a good controller Keyboard attatched to it. However, before turning to the iPad, I brought SynthStation25 with me with an iPod touch. Thus I could sit in the train and make people stir when I opened my suitcase, took a keyboard out and attached my iPod to it. Morale: Nothing is impossible now a days. If you want a controller, a touchsceen device AND mobility, SynthStation25 and an iPodTouch or an iPhone is the way to go.

I think we've got the message that you like that kind of setup. Its an expensive solution with limitations. There are better solutions. Touch is irrelevant. I much prefer my Asus Aspire One Netbook with Win7 and standard VSTis. I can use Massive, Traktor etc on it and play using the built in QWERTY keyboard. One third the price, with USB, 100mb network, proper keyboard and full compatibilty, its the same size as ipad. This thread is about Android though. I have an Android Samsung Galaxy S phone. Its great fun but I dont take it seriuosly.

You've already lost this discussion twice, let it go, please.

This is a thread about Android - you have nothing constructive to add here. You seem to be interested in my winning posts - dont be - Im all grown up and youre not my type, you sound like a stalker