Best guitar midi controller for VSTi and note input

[forbiddensilence]

I think it's time i made most of guitar skill and buy a guitar midi controller.

Anyone have any ideas on whats a decent one just to trigger notes and have low lantency? I seriously not going to learn to play a keyboard...life is too short..sick of being limited due to lack of experience and knowledge of the keyboard.

I understand that the real guitars with midi pick ups are not good..to be honest why would anyone care it to sound like a guitar if you main concern is to trigger different instruments.

Is anyone having success with a cheap midi set up? Like EZ-AG yahama?
Is it possible for me to enter notes via a guitar midi controller like i do with a keyboard with minimal fuss?

Thanks

[tapper mike]

That depends on how long you want to wait or how much you can afford and want to wait.

Ztars imho are the top of the line
http://starrlabs.com

If you buy a ztar new expect to wait. All ztars are handmade by a highly skilled american workforce. Which means not cheap and it means you could wait sometime for them to build you one. Even a bare bones z5 has more features then anything on the market

Starrlabs is also developing the itar. Which when it goes into production it will be more powerful then a kitara. It is not in production it is in development basically it is a neck that one attaches to an ipad. The total cost will be less then half the price of the kitara (for the neck and the ipad

Someone here has a kitara. If you dig through the threads you might find some interesting analysis of the kitara.

While the kitar does have built in synths which is something the ztar does not you can't load standard vsti's into the unit itself. Ztars have no soundcard unless you order it installed however it won't be the same as hooking it up to your computer. The itar as I understand it to be will have sounds and you will be able to use any sound that may be already available for the ipad.


I and several others have had many serious problems with the you rock guitar. There also have been problems associated with dealing with the company itself. We have had several threads all closed now about the issues that have occured.

The ez-ag from yamaha is also problematic. Everything from odd jumps in velocity and unintended pitch bend. There is a long thread somewhere here about an app that is intended to correct the flaws of the instrument. Honestly the only thing owning an ez ag did for me was make me want a ztar more so I saved up for the real deal.

[forbiddensilence]

As cool n cheap as itar sounds... im not into that whole touch thing..i get annoyed txting on touch phones! Imagine hitting the wrong string on the touch pad...hmmm

It's a shame there isnt a working guitar fretboard controller you can hold in your hand and just tap the notes/chords in the sequencer..like you can do with a keyboard.

What about a Z baby? is that really good?

[tapper mike]

I own a baby z It has key triggers not strings where your strumming hand goes.

I've made videos about the baby z


I like mine a lot. I especially like the pots for controlling synth sounds. It takes a little but not much getting used to when you work with key triggers. You can't use a pick with key triggers however you can "tap' them with your fingers in various ways. In "guitar mode" the key triggers provide reliable pressure sensitivity. I've never had to adjust the sensitivity for the key triggers however you can adjust each one individually for response levels and set an overal velocity curve on the ztar itself. Or set them to a fixed level. This comes in very handy depending on how you play and what you are going for. Such as a classical performer likes to use the entire velocity range so they can capture all the nuance. Someone who plays pop may like an inside velocity that picks up "Somewhat quite to somewhat loud" A hard rocker or hard electronica/trance/dubstep player may want only hard to very hard.




The neck of the baby z is smaller and thinner then regular ztars. However it is limited to 16 frets.

Both the baby z and regular ztars have controllable velocity tapping. This is something that no other brand can say. I also have an older z6. I prefer the action of the baby z but I prefer the velocity sensitivity of the z6 for tapping. Usually I set the babyz to a fixed velocity or a very limited velocity.

There is no latency with a ztar. There also is no unintended cutoff. If you are experiencing latency it generally has to do with your computer.

The action is very low although the strings protrude. You don't have to press the "strings" of the fretboard very far to get a note/signal. Most people use more force then they need to when fretting a ztar just because it feels well... not like guitar strings

[siriusbliss]

Search ebay for used Axon's, which IME STILL have better overall tracking with synths that are EXTERNAL hardware/VST/DSP, etc.

Otherwise there's always the 'standard' Roland units - all of which work well once your guitar is setup properly.

There's many discussions regarding MIDI guitar, but in my experience being able to play the instrument your comfortable with, and being able to layer in synths is a great experience.

Greg

[tapper mike]

When you layer the actual guitar sound with midi what it means is you are covering up the midi signal so the latency doesn't appear as obvious.

On the other hand if you are driving a pure midi connection such as with a kitara or ztar you can do much more including utilize sampled guitars Which provide you with more guitar sounds then a single guitar can produce even a variax.

[forbiddensilence]

Thanks for all the help!

I think i really need to just try out a cheap midi solution just to see how realistic my work flow can improve rather than a keyboard.

.At the moment the fastest way i can enter/record notes via keyboard is recording me tappin the rhythmic phrase on 'one note' and then nudging the notes i hear in my head to the melody i want.
surely cheap midi guitar can achieve better than my above method? I don't mind editing a few notes after, as long as its not every second note recorded! I don't care how good a keyboard player is...you still have to edit!!!

I still dont get how say a yahama ez ag controller any different to the way standard midi keboard functions...isn't it the same technology used but notes arranged for guitarist to play, press a button and trigger the sample/note etc? What vital bit of info im i missing which gives midi guitars a high error rate? I mean i'm not talking about 'real' guitars that need high precision set up with no buzz etc. A Synth guitar does not use real strings..therefore should work like any ole $5 cr*p controller.?

Or more to the point why on earth pay over $1000 for a flipplin guitar controller that works. Shame i can't trial these things b4 i buy. God i cld punch a wall down. .annoying.. it's the year 2012...and not a proper working midi guitar for $500..how embarassing. rant over.

My main purpose is to record orchestral lines.

[polaris20]

The inventor of the Axon stuff is releasing new stuff at NAMM this week, through Fishman I believe. I suggest waiting to see how much it costs and how it works. It'll be better than the Roland stuff, for sure. I've got the Roland GI-20, and have owned the GR-30, 33, and 55. The latter was supposed to be "much improved", but it really isn't at all. It's about the same as the others internally, and is no faster than the GI-20 for MIDI triggering and/or USB to computer. The GI-20 has been great. It's certainly not perfect, but I like it.

ZTars are amazing, the only problem really is A. you obviously can't play guitar and MIDI at the same time, and B. the cost is high due to being entirely American-made (which is a definite good thing, but adds to the cost). Their prices also recently went up quite a bit on many of their models.

I question the usefulness of the Kitara, due to the touchscreen. Do you stare at your guitar when you play? I don't. You really have to with the Kitara, which I view as a huge drawback.

I don't want to get into the YRG, but needless to say I've had three, and while they've improved the firmware over time, it's not all it was cracked up to be.

[RunBeerRun]

They all work for note-on, the yamaha ez-ag sometimes pulls off to an open string too often, you have to filter out the tapped notes but not picked(low velocity) unless you want to have that there.

This is what I use, people on youtube seem to get around the you rock guitar and fender mustang, might want to check into those.

[siriusbliss]

When you layer the actual guitar sound with midi what it means is you are covering up the midi signal so the latency doesn't appear as obvious.

On the other hand if you are driving a pure midi connection such as with a kitara or ztar you can do much more including utilize sampled guitars Which provide you with more guitar sounds then a single guitar can produce even a variax.

I don't WANT guitar emulations, and I do NOT get latency with my current setup because it's setup PROPERLY.

I've tried (or even helped develop) MANY of the tapper\trigger instruments available, and although it's a viable option for some, it's also just as viable in this day-and-age to simply get a dedicated MIDI configuration for the instrument you're already comfortable with.

If I wanted the more-or-less 'static' facilitations that MIDI offers, then that is another option.
I prefer the subtleties that guitar (sustained string and transients) offers when using MIDI.

I trigger and record MIDI singularly, layered in parallel or in addition to guitar when tracking, and left all these latency and false-triggering concerns behind years ago.


Greg

[siriusbliss]

The inventor of the Axon stuff is releasing new stuff at NAMM this week, through Fishman I believe. I suggest waiting to see how much it costs and how it works. It'll be better than the Roland stuff, for sure. ...

Yes, I'll be checking this out for sure this weekend!!

Greg

[Uncle E]

it's the year 2012...and not a proper working midi guitar for $500..how embarassing.

You'll notice that nothing has dramatically changed in decades. In the 80's, Suzuki had an electronic guitar that was nearly identical to the modern faux-guitars like the Kitar, EZ-AG, and YouRock, and obviously the piezo pickup stuff is just a minor improvement on what's been available forever. I like the Sonuus devices for the simplicity they provide but that can be done in software.

[forbiddensilence]

Great thanks for the axon update!! This so cool hear ppls opinions...
I just had another thought...or workaround?

From what i hear...the midi guitars i.e axon/Roland Gr 20 work really great with the sound modules? So why cant i just route the sound modules midi straight into the sequencer and then use the recorded midi info to play vst instruments? I'm i thinking right here? Isn't the main tracking problem to do with triggering external non roland sounds such as Vsti and other software directly with the computer.

I'm happy to just record the parts with axon/roland sounds and then just swap the midi with the vsti sounds i want to hear. I know i will never have the luxary of playing/recording the vsti in realtime but at least it will speed my workflow!!!

[forbiddensilence]

it's the year 2012...and not a proper working midi guitar for $500..how embarassing.

You'll notice that nothing has dramatically changed in decades. In the 80's, Suzuki had an electronic guitar that was nearly identical to the modern faux-guitars like the Kitar, EZ-AG, and YouRock, and obviously the piezo pickup stuff is just a minor improvement on what's been available forever. I like the Sonuus devices for the simplicity they provide but that can be done in software.

yeah, good point...suprised even Behringer hasn't got into the act! Or even M-audio..Sonuus does look simple and fun...does it respond to a guitarist with a clean technique? like could i record 16ths at 60BPM without much error with a great set up on my guitar??

[dreibel]

I currently use a Roland GI-10 unit with a GK-2 pickup attached to my Peavey Falcon, and have had excellent results with that setup. I use it exclusivly with VSTis oin Cubase on my Mac. Previous to this I used a GM-70/GK-1 setup and also had good results, but noticed a speed and accuracy increase with the GI-10 when I switched.I was lucky to find my current setup used at Long & McQ's for $75, and trading in an unused wah pedal brought that down even more

I think regarding latency issues depends with whatever synth you were using. When I used outboard synths to trigger I noticed that there was a noticeable lag from pluck to trigger. With soft synths the lag was noticeably shorter.

Your mileage may vary, of course, depending on a lot of factors, including what synths are used (I've had my best results with NI's FM8), setup on the guitar (my Falcon has a Kahler Spyder trem on it, with a locking nut which seems to have killed some of the ringing overtones a more naturally setup guitar has, which I suspect has allowed for better tracking on mine, and since after installing a Tremel-No on it, which allows me to convert the trem to a hardtail at will, has also seems to have helped) and setup within the synths themselves (I found best results when making sure the patch and the GI-10 are both set to a pitch bend factor of 2)

The other stuff? The You Rock I've tried, and was extremely underwhelmed by its tracking, though I think with some judicious tweezing it could've worked. I've heard good things about the EZ-EG, which is supposed to be more ruggedly constructed that the AG, though it shares many of the same concerns a number of people have reported.