KVR Audio

KoolFartWind · Post by **KoolFartWind** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:38 pm

Hi everybody,

can somebody of the experts explain how certain kinds of meters (4/4) fit good together with kinds of rhythms ? Especially I am interested in the opposite, if I have a certain rhythm which sounds (empirically) rubbish with a chosen meter. The aim is that I want to realize, when it is musically not wise to use syncopation. Examples are very welcome. Maybe somebody can post a midi-file ? I will try to underline my question with examples. Thanks in advance for any hint.

Kind regards,

KFW

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:12 pm

I don't think there is a recipe book approach for this kind of consideration. As in most aspects of music, CONTEXT is huge. Whatever you as a music maker create as your own particular "world" in a song or piece sets its own norms and definitions of what fits and what doesn't. Syncopation will work or not work according to this context.

For a stupid example, if you have a "squared off" set of crotches and quavers in a hymn like chorale and suddenly you break into a bass-driven funky groove, you'll have created some definite contrast! Whether or not this contrast is appropriate or inappropriate is a matter for one's own ears to determine.

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:14 pm

By the way, I truly love your screen name.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:37 pm

I would recommend, as exercises, comparing vocals that *scan* against, or with a beat, a pedestrian 4/4 kind of beat, with things you'd say conversationally against that kind of beat. find samples of a speech and set that against a beat and experiment. speech isn't metered but it can be put against meter, speech might be in your class 'rubbish' but there is real rhythmic interest outside of meter and that's a good start.

as far as syncopes, analyze funk music, again where the vocals get ahead or lay back or overlap beats.
you need to fully grasp subdivision of the pulse & understand syncopation as a technical matter, then we have a language to use to describe the tucks or what-have-you in the time.

Sendy · Post by **Sendy** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:30 pm

The main lynchpin with making syncopation sound good for me, was making things sound designed to fit together. If you're going to syncopate snare hits at a certain part, work the other parts around it, so that they either coincide with the syncopations, or mesh alternately like cogs in a machine.

Before I understood this I was adding layers over eachother that sounded good in pairs, but didn't gel as a whole, and ultimately sounded aimless for a reason that wasn't immediately obvious at the time.

KoolFartWind · Post by **KoolFartWind** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:37 pm

Many thx for the replys dear fellows. I could not write back because nearly being drowned under a huge, slimey, stinkey wave of work.

Ogg Vorbis wrote: For a stupid example, if you have a "squared off" set of crotches and quavers in a hymn like chorale and suddenly you break into a bass-driven funky groove, you'll have created some definite contrast! Whether or not this contrast is appropriate or inappropriate is a matter for one's own ears to determine.

Yeah definetly, what I've found out for me so far is, that you indeed can make use of these types of quite distinct contrasts if they do not own a too high proportion of your piece, yet appearing regularly enough, that they can be considered as a stilistic technique rather than an improvisation sequence. So there is not much what I found out

Ogg Vorbis wrote: By the way, I truly love your screen name.

Hehe, so I assume you understand German ? Otherwise it would sound completely (not just partly) infantile

But that's the price of being kool.

jancivil wrote: as far as syncopes, analyze funk music, again where the vocals get ahead or lay back or overlap beats.
you need to fully grasp subdivision of the pulse & understand syncopation as a technical matter, then we have a language to use to describe the tucks or what-have-you in the time.

Thanks for the hint, regarding funk music. I will try to analyze a few pieces and try to comprehend the ideas behind it. Seems like I missed out an awesome genre. I think I understand subdivision of the pulse already on a theoretical level. It is built up like a 2-D matrix : one row
for each subdivion and one column for each pulse in a measure. So you have a hierarchy of accenting a certain pulse. The number of subdivisions depends on the tempo of the track, because 1/32 scores in a Gabba-Track are percepted as noise from the common ear. ... so far the theoretical stuff goes. I already made templates for my accentuation in tracks, down to 1/32 dubdivision. But until now I could not create rules to guide me through the "correct" use of syncopation. Because compared to the system of cadences, the meter for me is much less a subjective component of (modern dance-) music, so you can apply techniques more pragmatically. Everyone realizes
if the placement of a certain drum note is boring or "rubbish", but opinions differ more when it comes to appreciating a certain melody or not.

Sendy wrote:The main lynchpin with making syncopation sound good for me, was making things sound designed to fit together. If you're going to syncopate snare hits at a certain part, work the other parts around it, so that they either coincide with the syncopations, or mesh alternately like cogs in a machine.

Seems like I just need more practice then

Sendy wrote:
Before I understood this I was adding layers over eachother that sounded good in pairs, but didn't gel as a whole, and ultimately sounded aimless for a reason that wasn't immediately obvious at the time.

I think I am in that "sounded good in pairs" - phase right now

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:45 pm

KoolFartWind wrote:
Ogg Vorbis wrote: By the way, I truly love your screen name.
Hehe, so I assume you understand German ? Otherwise it would sound completely (not just partly) infantile But that's the price of being kool.

I believe it's fahrt with the little dots over the "a." But I digress yet again...

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:21 pm

KoolFartWind wrote:
jancivil wrote: as far as syncopes, analyze funk music, again where the vocals get ahead or lay back or overlap beats.
you need to fully grasp subdivision of the pulse & understand syncopation as a technical matter, then we have a language to use to describe the tucks or what-have-you in the time.
Thanks for the hint, regarding funk music. I will try to analyze a few pieces and try to comprehend the ideas behind it.
I already made templates for my accentuation in tracks, down to 1/32 dubdivision. But until now I could not create rules to guide me through the "correct" use of syncopation.

I had drum lessons once upon a time. I was a kid of 11, 12. I had things I had leaned to do and ready for a next step of complexity. The guy had me transcribe it onto drum staves, the ride (hihat), kick and snare basis, verbatim (Hendrix "Fire"). I had such a solid foundation for understanding syncopation in a drum part from then on.

for instance the snare, typically after the first backbeat will accentuate the last sixteenth of that beat (beat 2 of 4 quarters let's say) and then the second sixteenth of the subsequent beat, classic syncopation in the funk paradigm... isolate these three components of a drum part and chart it out.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:24 pm

also look at triplets and how they scan against the duple, or two pulse.

rhythm can go all the way, you know, you don't have to limit to divisions of two...

Sendy · Post by **Sendy** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:37 pm

Extra cool points if you can use quintuplets and make it sound good

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:11 pm

just follow this^

Relationship between Meter and Rhythm