Diva Vs. Real Analog

[ghettosynth]

I wasn't talking about the express version, but, even if the express edition doesn't work for you, it's still a sophisticated product that took many man years to develop and microsoft provides it for free to anyone.

hmm ... comparing the marketing and distribution models for a product that has the potential to reach 10s, maybe 100s of millions of users, distributed by a company with billions of dollars for R&D + marketing to a mom&pop niche market limited usually to a few thousand users ... yeah that makes perfect sense.

Kind of like comparing hardware to software, wouldn't you say? Seems like it might be silly to compare two things that have completely different use cases, provide different value to users, and serve different goals for the company, amiright?

I think, IIRC, that's what somebody was saying here earlier.

[musikmachine]

ummmm...a 'rich man's toy'? At, what, $179.00? And what does that make Omnisphere then? A Billionaire's toy?

See this is why plugin rental is becoming the norm.

[AdmiralQuality]

ummmm...a 'rich man's toy'? At, what, $179.00? And what does that make Omnisphere then? A Billionaire's toy?

See this is why plugin rental is becoming the norm.

[ghettosynth]

What I'm saying is, you're making the same mistake that he is comparing the prices of apples to oranges. I read him as saying that he feels that $180 is too much for a software synth, not that $180, or $1800 even is necessarily too much for ANY synth.

He said softsynths are a rip-off and blamed developers. That is very different than simply saying he does not find it worth his own dollars.

As for a resale value, it does not matter whether I can sell my softsynths in some years. I already lost more on the resale of hardware synths over the years than I will EVER spend on software synths period.

True. It was even brought up that the revered Prophet 5 went from selling for $3500 to $600 at some point. So people lost $2900 on a single instrument. That's a lot more than I've ever spent on software, never mind lost when selling it. Of course, sometimes you hit big, but then again, you can win the lottery too.

Plugins, maybe, but software, not even close. I've spent a lot of money on software over the years and in ZERO cases, has it been worth anything close, let alone more than what I paid for it.

We were also talking about analog synths, and in recent years, at least the last 20, I'd say you could break even or do better more often than not. So comparing analog hardware today, and in the reasonable short term future, it's pretty safe to reason that it's going to hold value until you sell. If that's what is really important to someone, then they would be correct in arguing the position that hardware is a better value. You really can't object to this, it's simply true.

Even new analog hardware often sells very close to it's retail price.

Ghetto, you can't say, "I read him as saying." That's not what he said.

No, I absolutely can step back from the inane bickering on KVR and say that what I read someone as saying is less vial, less aggressive, less black and white, and less obnoxious than the donkey tail people believe that they're trying to pin on.

I can realize, in the moment, that people get caught up in online conversations and exaggerate and I can factor that in to my interpretation of what they're saying and try to extract a reasonable position out of what others deem absurd.

HIs statement was that Diva was "a rich man's toy." Completely ludicrous, of course.

Nope, I disagree, it's a turn of phrase, just like "completely ludicrous", yet I'm not holding you to a total literal interpretation. $180 is an expensive single synth. You really can't deny that.

Your "reading" elevates his rant into something that makes sense. What he actually said is much difference.

Despite the exaggeration, it made sense to me.

[SJ_Digriz]

Kind of like comparing hardware to software, wouldn't you say? Seems like it might be silly to compare two things that have completely different use cases, provide different value to users, and serve different goals for the company, amiright?

Not at all. On the one hand you have synth developers in some cases purposefully trying to model the real world attributes of hardware synths. And in some cases you have those that don't care to do that, however they same osc/filter/envelope/amp paradigm is repeated over and over. Then you have people, which I believe would contain Urs but don't want to speak for him, who are trying to bridge the two concepts and maybe find something new in the process. In any of these scenarios, comparing to hardware is pretty much required.

Your economic comparison is so far off base its hard to even understand why you would think they are comparable. You can't possibly compare the market model of a billion dollar corporation with hundreds, if not thousands, of software assets, to a small software house. I don't envy Urs the pressures of meeting payroll. I don't think it's fair for those that haven't carried that responsibility to throw stones at those who do. Also, again .. if you think the product is so unfairly compensated, feel free to put in all of YOUR time and effort to understand/design/code and get one of these to market.

[bmrzycki]

There are no winners.

I think this entire thread is an elaborate ploy by the worshippers of Iktomi to spread confusion and discord in accordance with their god's desires. If we somehow managed to agree then the sacred creation of discord and confusion would not arise.

[ghettosynth]

Your economic comparison is so far off base

I was trying to be subtle, I clearly didn't communicate my point to you. YOU ARE MAKING MY POINT! You can't compare apples to oranges just like you can't compare the cost of a hardware synth to the cost of a software synth. That's what I've been claiming all along as people attempt to demonstrate the value of synth X by making invalid comparisons. Go back and read the thread carefully before you make another long rant at me that I'm not going to read.

MS C++ was presented as a response to someone comparing the cost of a synth with the cost of a lego set. I gave only some simple properties, as did he, suggesting that if one only take a cursory look at a comparison, then one can easily present the properties that makes a comparison seem sensible. In other words, it was presented as a strawman, followed with the chestnut "you can prove anything with analogy." Of course you can knock it down easily, of course it's a poor comparison, that was the intention.

Similarly, I can completely trash the comparison to lego sets. Because a lego set costs as much as a soft synth and lego sets are bought willy nilly at christmas for kids DOES NOT MEAN that a synth of the same price is a good value.

My god, is it really that difficult to understand? Seriously? I'll try to turn the obviousness up to 12, I'm not sure that it's going to help here.

If you stop looking for someone to argue with, you might have a chance at a conversation, jesus!

[hibidy]

"show me winner!"



.......

[AdmiralQuality]

If I had found a Prophet 5 for $600 at any point in history I'd have been thrilled. Maybe a broken one went for that. Or in an estate sale. Or maybe it was a Prophet 600 you're thinking of?

I still want a T8!

[SJ_Digriz]

lol @hibidy

We can just move along @ghettosynth

[ghettosynth]

If I had found a Prophet 5 for $600 at any point in history I'd have been thrilled. Maybe a broken one went for that. Or in an estate sale. Or maybe it was a Prophet 600 you're thinking of?

No man, you weren't buying synths at the right time/place. I purchased my Rev3 P5 around 1994 or so, for right at $600. Not only was it not "broken", it was almost flawless with only a few minor dinigs to the wood. It looked a lot better than my memorymoog. I bought a P600 the same year for $125 and two SH101s for less than $100 each. I could go on, but the prices would just make you sick.

That was the analog synth market in the early nineties. We used to bitch that 303's had become absurdly priced at about $600. It was bad enough when they were $300, but the price was going through the roof for some crazy reason.

[ghettosynth]

We can just move along @ghettosynth

Enjoy a slice, on me, yeah, put your wallet away, that's how I roll.

[hibidy]

too gamey

(note: hibidy is NOT directing his humor at anyone personally )

[ghettosynth]

too gamey

BAdump, try the veal!

[AdmiralQuality]

If I had found a Prophet 5 for $600 at any point in history I'd have been thrilled. Maybe a broken one went for that. Or in an estate sale. Or maybe it was a Prophet 600 you're thinking of?

No man, you weren't buying synths at the right time/place. I purchased my Rev3 P5 around 1994 or so, for right at $600. I bought a P600 the same year for $125 and two SH101s for less than $100 each. I could go on, but the prices would just make you sick.

That was the analog synth market in the early nineties. We used to bitch that 303's had become absurdly priced at about $600. It was bad enough when they were $300, but the price was going through the roof for some crazy reason.

I live in Toronto. SH-101s were already cool again by the 90s, though you could have probably got one cheap in the late 80s as by that time it had become what everybody didn't want.

But Prophet 5s were never uncool. Jupiter 6es and 8s. Oberheim OB8s and Xes. They've all largely maintained their sticker prices (it's just, that money is worth less now). I've never understood the 303 thing. If only I could go back in time and buy a warehouse full of the things!