Keys and how to use notes

[Pokeyoats]

Hello everyone.

A bit of background, I am an oldie (30s) that never had a chance to learn music as a child and have since learned that I have a real love and passion for composing and playing on the piano.

I have learnt about keys and the major scale (about to learn the minor scale) but I am having a hard time understanding the circle of fifths.

For example, if I was playing in C Major, it seems to me that I would never use a black key, but others are telling me that you would, due to fifths. I just can't understand the correlation and how to successfully move around the keyboard.

I would so appreciate any advice and help that anyone can give me. I am quite poor and would love to study more, does anyone also have any advice regarding cheap community colleges or anywhere I could go? I have such a desire to learn.

[JumpingJackFlash]

I have learnt about keys and the major scale (about to learn the minor scale) but I am having a hard time understanding the circle of fifths.

My advice would be forget about the circle of fifths to begin with. It's one of those things that, after you have learnt a bit more, you will just suddenly find that you 'get it'.

I would start, as you have been doing, with scales, keys, triads... and so on.

The following may be of some use:

An Introduction to Music Theory
Scales, Modes and Chords
Sharps, Flats and how to work out Keys
An introduction to music notation -How to read & write music

That said however, here is more information on the circle of fifths:

You will come across two slightly different things that people may talk about in connection with this.
The first simply relates to diatonic chords that are a fifth apart (for example IV-VII-III-VI-II-V-I). In harmony, such progressions generally sound good. You don't have to use the complete cycle of course, any two consecutive chords that are a fifth apart just tend to work well (the most obvious example is V-I, the perfect cadence, which is often extended to become II-V-I for the same reason).

The second thing people might talk about is different keys; the music passes through several different keys a perfect fifth apart. This was a very common device in Classical music. For example, you might start in C major, move to G major, then move to D major and so on (or the other way round; C major, F major, Bb major etc. - note that rising a fifth is harmonically the same as descending a fourth and vice versa). Unlike the first way I mentioned above, because you are actually changing key (even if only for a very short time) you will need to add accidentals; when rising in fifths you add a sharp or take away a flat each time, and the opposite when descending in fifths.

If you keep going, you will pass through every single key and eventually end up where you started in a higher or lower octave:

So, for example:
C,G,D,A,E,B,F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#,B#
And B# sounds the same as C (they are 'enharmonically equivalent').

Or, descending:
C,F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb,Fb,Bbb,Ebb,Abb,Dbb.
This is the same as above only backwards (using enharmonic equivalents).

Again, you don't have to complete the cycle, you can end (and start) whenever you like.

Descending in fifths is particularly common as the the tonic of the previous key can become the dominant of the next. For example:

Code: Select all

C : V - I
F :     V - I
Bb:         V - I
Eb:             V - I
Ab:                 V - I
Db:                     V - I
Gb:                         V - I
Cb:                             V - I
etc.

Hope this helps!

[Pokeyoats]

Thank you so much. I am going to read this, and re-read this and keep at it until I understand.

I am so in love with the process. Can you advise any good books or ANYTHING that I can do to learn faster?

I am so desperate for knowledge!!

Again, thank you, I am going to study your post with much vigor!

[tehlord]

I'd say forget it altogether. I never learned it, never felt the need to learn it and after a discussion with somebody this morning I think it can actually hamper the learning process.

You don't actually need theory to write music. I'd suggest focusing all your attention on playing to start with, and in the process your ears will be transformed.

That's not to say I'm anti theory, just don't fret about understanding it. I never did tbh, it bored the tits off me.

[jancivil]

I am not a fan of piling on lists of information and charts onto someone new to 'theory', depending on what they've shown as far as level. Even so... It can be a cart that won't pull the horse of understanding. My guess is that if fifths in a circle is a stumbling block there is a beginner rather than at all intermediary thing here.

How many songs do you know? If the answer is zero, i would advise learning some songs and seeing by your own experience with them what they're made of. It's a process of discovery. You would find out from music, from people's experience before you making songs (rather than people who talk about the mechanics of that, and after the fact) where there are instances where these black keys mix in to a white key area, or like things that don't click on an intellectual level. When you see these charts and information you will have experienced what they're about, what they codify, from the real world.

A little like, a child when taught arithmetic is given word problems. Some people are suited to numbers. If so do delve fully into it on that level. But if a circle of fifths didn't click I wonder if that's the ticket.

It is true and demonstrably so that there are people that wrote great and enduring music that simply did not concern themselves with such matters. BUT they had music around them as a way of life and picked things up by osmosis...

[jancivil]

I think community college can be a wonderful resource. As opposed to the internet particularly. There is always the risk that you'll get a crap teacher... but a decent teacher has mucho experience, with applying these concepts to music and there is feedback, interaction. You will know when you failed to get something, you can't hide.

what you get on the internet is this, and this is real: the people that really know what to, and how to teach you are not going very far for free, not usually. You will get people with an agenda such as sites they have an interest in that do cost, with links to basics and some suggestions... or you may get people that have collated all the information and have the time to paste it, and this is their whole musical life. This is not teaching music. You would have to obtain the wisdom somewhere to separate the wheat from the chaff; and being credulous with the internet, whomever you're speaking to, myself included, is not so conducive to that aspect.

So if there is a community college near you, I would say it can't hurt to pay a visit and talk to some folks.

[wrench45us]

that said, as far as books go the songwriting books by Rikky Rooksby are a very gentle introduction to theory that concentrates on how things like chord progression and melody work in popular music -- building from familiar and classic pop song styles.

I found seveal of his books to be very useful in setting a useful foundation before moving into jazz theory

to jan civil's point it makes a lot more sense to learn songs and songs and songs to begin to have a sense of the theory behind songs or styles you're familar with (i.e. Rikky Rooksby working with pop music) rather than jump into jazz theory when one may not have been exposed/listened to as much music where that jazz theory was at work (granted that will vary dramatically from person to person)
(that said, I think popular song and jazz theory do meet in jazz standards (great american song book (Sinatra, Fitzgerald, etc.) which have ingrained themselves into mass culture consciousness and to a lesser extent original bebop (Parker and Gillespie, Powell and Monk) and birth of the cool modal (Miles Davis)

[Pokeyoats]

Hi everyone,

Thanks so much for answering. I feel that I should give a bit of a background of myself. First is that I was not given the opportunity to learn music as a child and am in my thirties now. I am also a programmer & systems administrator. My age and experience has allowed me to absorb the mathematical aspects of music very quickly.

In regard to composition I use my experience with code to reverse engineer tracks, at least in regard to number of bars for verse, chorus, transition (I think that's called a hook) lead ins, lead outs & solos. I use a spreadsheet to give me a visual indicator.

I am studying from books called Piano4All which does not teach you to be a media player rather it starts with chords and how to play them rhythmically and to memorize progressions. I am enjoying these books.

I also purchased Rock Band 3 with the keyboard and do it's training every night along with tracks in Pro mode, it's really helped my playing.

I never understood the addiction that is music, and never dreamed that I could become so infatuated with the process. I've tried a lot of hobbies and given up on many, this is a process I love. I believe my enthusiasm and drive gives me potential and I thank wrench45us for the tip (and f course everyone), I will seek out that book.

I don't fully understand the drive, I just want to make music. I understand I am a beginner but I am so hungry for knowledge & ability; I've never been bitten by something quite like this and I yearn to be able to work with other skilled musicians.

Thank you so much everyone, I am going to investigate a community college, I've been single the last 10 months so money is tight, but fingers crossed I can continue my education with the help of a person, for as it stands now I have only books.

[Trey73]

Does anyone have any mental tricks for remembering which notes are in which Key? I still have trouble determining the Key of a song by simply listening to it.
The only simple "methods" of determining Key I've seen are comments like "The second chord of a song is usually the Key". That one hasn't quite worked out for me yet.

[tapper mike]

That would fall into the catagory of ear training.

Keys aren't literal when it comes to songs. accidentals happen all the time but mostly hit and run
http://piano.about.com/od/musicaltermss ... usic_7.htm
accidentals are on purpose. The writer/composer whatever decided that they wanted to use that note.


Not to mention many songs have key changes.

So you are left with two directions for ear training. Chromatic and harmonic.
If you had absolute perfect pitch you wouldn't need either. Absolute perfect pitch is chromatic for western 12 tone systems. It means you can find the note indifferent to key, be able to define the intonation used and do so without a reference value.

If you can find.... Oh C in a song and you noticed the next note in a song was 4 halfsteps up chromatically you could postulate it was an E regardless of what key the song is in. Now if you counted two diatonic scale notes up it would still be C. But what if it's an accidental? What if a modulation to a new key occured? Well applying the chromatic form you would find the note but you may not be able to justify it in key. Sometimes not trying to over analyze a song is your fastest way to learn it by listening.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Does anyone have any mental tricks for remembering which notes are in which Key?

The following might be of some use:
Sharps, Flats and how to work out Keys
An Introduction to Key-Signatures (you might need to scroll down slightly to the relevant section)

I still have trouble determining the Key of a song by simply listening to it.

This is hard to do, even for many professional musicians (without a reference point that is). Do you really need to know the key of a piece of music simply by listening to it?

The only simple "methods" of determining Key I've seen are comments like "The second chord of a song is usually the Key". That one hasn't quite worked out for me yet.

Whoever said that was talking rubbish. The last chord of a song often gives you the key, sometimes the first chord can too, but there are many exceptions and nothing like this is ever going to be sufficiently reliable.

[jancivil]

I wouldn't look for 'mental tricks', you either learn your stuff or you're lost.

I don't know if you mean identifying a key while you have the chords in front of you or immediately knowing by ear what key. The former (at least insofar as tonal music) will become easily apparent after you gain experience with songs, have learned and played songs a while... I don't have sentences or language to tell you how you'll know and I honestly don't think that's much of a path to this. the latter is rather a lofty goal that many never attain, and needed never worry about.

I can see its use, no doubt, for improvisers particularly. I don't have it. I can often identify E A D G B straight off (as roots, say), as they're open strings of a guitar, from a kind of vibrational memory but if the sonority of the instrument is such a thing where that doesn't 'ring', I could be in the dark so-to-speak. Learning intervals so once you have a reference your guess is an educated one is more crucial.

[Nanakai]

Hello everyone.

I would so appreciate any advice and help that anyone can give me. I am quite poor and would love to study more, does anyone also have any advice regarding cheap community colleges or anywhere I could go? I have such a desire to learn.

A lot of sensible advice here, but I'd like to add something that I never see. The single most important thing you can do when learning music is make sure you are hearing tension and resolution. All the tonal theory you learn will relate in some way to this feeling of tension and release in music. Despite its importance, I don't see it come up in beginners material. I think this is because people who really understand music feel that it's self-evident and don't want to waste time teaching it, and since beginners don't know what they're missing, they can't ask about it. So, I've seen many beginners struggle with theory because they have no idea what tonal theory is actually meant to explain.

This site might help: http://www.jacmuse.com/artisticconcepts/newpage113.htm

I have some other ideas on it, but I am not an educator and couldn't well give you an exercise here and now.

I hope that made some sense.

[jancivil]

good point. I wouldn't want to go into it glibly because it requires context, for instance there is less tension in these EDM kinds of objects than in classical or jazz-type musics... and it's a deeper area than is easy to touch on.

two directions for ear training. Chromatic and harmonic.

You learn to identify intervals, the quality of intervals. A harmony is defined by the quality of interval (the interval you learned one next to the other, horizontally as it were). you learn say a major third; a major 'chord' has that major third, major quality, and there you have it; there may be more to it, two major thirds (rather than a major and a minor) and it's augmented triad; or you learn to identify the 7th and that quality, major, minor 7th.

I wouldn't separate linear ear training and vertical/harmonic ear training, but emphasize the intervals. let's take the major triad, there are three parts, major third, minor third, and its sum, perfect fifth. if you learn what happens in a melodic line, often you find it corresponds with the harmony. Often there is a lot of harmony in the melody, it's just horizonatally presented rather than vertically.

chromatic is simply 'more options than diatonic'; 12 options, 7 options.

[jancivil]

So, I've seen many beginners struggle with theory because they have no idea what tonal theory is actually meant to explain.

this is why I say so often, learn songs, get experience with music that exists, get a grasp of a model, rather than start with theory and language. which is after the fact descriptions of the thing, get into the thing first and then theory makes some sense. "Tension and resolution", maybe you have gained a sense of it in a song, so you see 'V-I cadence' later and it clicks.


people want to read something to gain the understanding, a little bit cart before the horse... Copy it off the recording, you know. Get a fake book at least and fill in what's missing. Your ear will learn, you can train your ear, trial and error doesn't have to be a bad thing.

without context it's a difficulty to explain everything; or given certain contexts, some styles don't really employ a lot of theory... there are priniciples that vaguely apply but there is a temptation to provide a lot of information from other contexts and a glut of information that isn't going to be very useful. So I suggest learning the instrument a little and knowing some songs. It might turn out there is a richer reservoir to tap into and there will be a better foundation for the whole experience of discussing principles

Music is not a literary art, hoping to get a skill set from some reading isn't really it.