Diva Vs. Real Analog

[filter303]

I don't understand what you are trying to say with your reply PxIndy.
But if it's anything mean, I ask that please don't take my words out of the context thanks. Like I said it depends on the product. Getting your money back from analog synths is a gamble to be honest.

[AdmiralQuality]

Trying to break even on music gear kind of voids the point, doesn't it? Don't you value the stuff? Don't you get some use out of it that you can factor into your amortizations? Are you being ripped off if you can't sell it for as much or more than what you bought it for? This ain't the stock market, I'd have thought we musicians were supposed to be about results.

(It's my birthday. G'nite! )

[goldenanalog]

(It's my birthday. G'nite! )

A very happy birthday, sir!

[ghettosynth]

Anyway, my point is, I think the financial argument makes no sense and only weakens the hardware argument, not strengthens it. Analog hardware has some undeniable advantages.

I hear what you're saying, but you can't project your experience to everyone. It does work well for some people and I can see why people think that way.

You are the one projecting your experience cause you are the one making a general claim of a financial advantage for analog hardware.

Here is EXACTLY what I said.

Plugins, maybe, but software, not even close. I've spent a lot of money on software over the years and in ZERO cases, has it been worth anything close, let alone more than what I paid for it.

We were also talking about analog synths, and in recent years, at least the last 20, I'd say you could break even or do better more often than not. So comparing analog hardware today, and in the reasonable short term future, it's pretty safe to reason that it's going to hold value until you sell. If that's what is really important to someone, then they would be correct in arguing the position that hardware is a better value. You really can't object to this, it's simply true.

Even new analog hardware often sells very close to it's retail price.

The final sentence makes it CLEAR that I'm talking about USED analog hardware. If you can't sell USED analog hardware for what you buy it for MORE OFTEN THAN NOT then it's your own fault.

Notice that with NEW I only stated that it often sells very close to it's retail price. I should have said purchase price which was what I was thinking.

I am not making a claim, but rather refuting yours so my anecdotal evidence is one example where your claim does not hold.

You haven't refuted mine. I never claimed that if you paid full pop for a poly in the 80s that you'll get your money out of it, that's nonsense. My general claim is much more subdued than that and you have yet to refute it. In fact, I was specific and said over the last 20 years or so which covers the time from just after they bottomed out to the present. Just because your friends haven't made money on analog doesn't mean my claim is false. Moreover, I explicitly qualified it with "More often than Not", in other words, I think that you'll do better at least 50% of the time just buying used analog gear without much thought. I do better because I understand the technology.

Anyway, I don't care about the cash and would rather talk about the sound

Fair enough, but the point here is that the thought process that I've outlined describes how many people think about analog hardware. You can buy it used, use it gently in your home studio, and sell it for what you paid for within the reasonable short term future, and not worry about losing money. The same cannot be said for software. You got lucky with Zebra. You can't sell AAS Ultra Analog for 20% less than retail, hell, you'll be lucky to get 20% of retail.

I don't think Zebra particularly replicates an analog sound like Diva, but it does have a vast sonic landscape and makes sounds I love to play and listen to.

http://draigathar.org/sounds/Zebra3.mp3

Sure, lots of synths do that. Sounds a bit harsh to my ears. I think Zebra is decent, I just don't I need anything that isn't new. Reaktor fills most of my needs. I only buy new synths because they're innovative in some significant way. I love what Urs is doing lately, but I'm not really a fan of the Zebra UI.

I have quite a few softsynths, but most of them either came with hardware, other software, or in bundles. I would love a much more immediate feeling modular. Something like the Nord Modular, yes I know that someone is doing something similar, but it's a long way from being the kind of quality that will get me to stick a crowbar in my wallet. Truth is, of course, that I don't NEED any new synthesizers, but, I'll buy them if they are really fantastic and I believe that they will seriously inspire me.

[ghettosynth]

It's certainly true that if you buy used stuff you can sell it for the same price you bought it for, sometimes even for a little profit.

and

I also had the more rare (and IMO more desired) boutique synth FR-777 for sale , and it took months to sell it. Only one guy was interested of my FR-777. Needless to say that I had to drop the price to get rid of it. Some of the stuff I have tried to sell are still collecting dust on my homestudio because nobody wants it unless they can get it for almost free or something.

I don't know what he bought and sold his for, but last I checked, and there aren't any on ebay right now, FR-777s are still going for far more than what they retailed for brand new.

Regarding "investments", that's not the claim. An investment earns a return. I'm simply saying that most of the time you can get out what you put in on new analog gear. That doesn't mean that you don't have a responsibility to watch the market and be careful about what you're buying.

I'm further claiming that time doesn't hurt hardware as much as it hurts software.

[ghettosynth]

'Are analog synths a good investment?'

Interesting question.

1.) Repair record-an unnamed genius friend of mine who has toured big in a support capacity works on all synths-he says the single biggest issue he deals with are DIY owners or so-called: 'repairmen' that clusterf*ck a synth instead of properly repairing it.

Before I went back to school, I was a professional tech, I know what I'm talking about. What I suspect that he's referring to are people that don't know how to properly clean pots, replace jacks etc. Beyond that, it's just arrogance. If someone has progressed to a DIY stage that they can successfully build their own synth circuits and have reasonably mastered soldering and other associated skills, then they can fix their own synths reasonably well. You can't tell if I've repaired a synth and I know quite a few people in the DIY community that have similar skills. That said, I did get an arp once cheap because someone who didn't know what they were doing tried to repair it. I wouldn't call them DIY types, however, they just didn't know what they were doing.

I used to repair stereo gear and I could teach anyone on KVR how to do 80% of the job 80% of the time in about a month. A lot of it is (was) mechanical and just common sense, and much of the rest of it is formulaic.

2.) Simpler is better: I wouldn't touch a Yamaha CS-80 because of it's inherent design flaws that have become toxic 30 years later. 'Cost of ownership (and buyership) can be excrutiating tangibles in the used analog synth market.

Yep!

3.) Parts availability: Yes or no?

Yeah, especially for synths like the Xpander with their encoders or early yahamas with their hard to get custom chips.

4.) Was it toured? Turns equipment into junk (especially in the olden days-some of us here @ KVR know this) There are exceptions; which does NOT include Mellotrons!

Much of what is available at reasonable prices is consumer level stuff that has a really low chance of being toured extensively.

My conclusion is that to pursue it may or may not be a waste of money, depending on how savy of a buyer you are, and how resourceful you are.

If you can score a working minimoog from the 70's for $300, that's a safe investment. I got an Oberheim FVS-1 from a speaker trade through a music store that I later sold for $3700-lucky investment; but hated to sell (paid bills).

Those are extreme cases. You can buy a used Dave Smith Mopho for around $300 and you'll still be able to get around $300 for it six months or a year from now. You can buy an MKS-50 for a couple of hundred and still get that back six months or a year from now. I could list gear all night, but I won't, you do have to do a bit of research.

A lot of popular ARP stuff was built pretty cheap.

See my note above on not knowing how to clean pots properly.

A lot of MOOG stuff was complex (ex: Polymoog; Memorymoog). Yamaha was pretty good; but pricey, and they messed up sometimes. Oberheim: Good and bad. SCI: Same as Obie.

Good examples of bad Moogs, but really, the only extreme examples. The Multi is a bit flakey, but not unreasonably so. Most other Moogs are pretty safe bets. Minis can be repaired easily. There are few special parts and they are all available somewhere.

I personally wouldn't invest money in any synth purely as an investment unless it was a screaming deal; even then you run the risk of an older synth being a hornets' nest full of surprises/problems.

All it takes is one critical/rare part being out of commission-no: I wouldn't do it.

Which is why you don't buy the really rare stuff. Old Arps may be flakey (Ody/Avatar) but there's nothing in them that you can't still find. Maybe if you have a shit tech it may be hard. Same with oberheim SEMS or Roland System 100 stuff.

Personally, I think that you're being overly cautious. I've bought several synths from random people on craigslist over the last few years and haven't had a single problem with them. They are all worth at least what I paid for them right now and would sell in less than an hour if I posted my purchase price here. Hell, I don't even think that they'd take that long.

I've been buying analog synths for a LONG time and although I've repaired a few, I've never NOT been able to find a part. The really hard to get digital parts rarely die. I've had more new stuff die and be irreparable than old. Old synths, in general, use more generic parts. New hardware is ALL vendor specific.

[filter303]

About the FR-777. I think it used to cost $777. I think I got 900 euros for it.
I sold it for about the same price that I paid for it. I am not sure if I lost a few euros or not but it doesn't matter that much.
I used it for many years for almost free. It's all relative when it comes to stuff like this. I've seen that FR-777's cost much more than 900euros, so considering that I didn't get much. But how much does it costs to rent an hardware compressor?
Hmm... what I tried to say with my FR-777 story is that sometimes it's hard to sell the stuff even if it's good. So many people are using software these days that hardware is not as cool as it used to be. To me it is, but it's not for many people. Especially at this part of internet

[ghettosynth]

About the FR-777. I think it used to cost $777. I think I got 900 euros for it.
I sold it for about the same price that I paid for it. I am not sure if I lost a few euros or not but it doesn't matter that much.
I used it for many years for almost free. It's all relative when it comes to stuff like this. I've seen that FR-777's cost much more than 900euros, so considering that I didn't get much. But how much does it costs to rent an hardware compressor?
Hmm... what I tried to say with my FR-777 story is that sometimes it's hard to sell the stuff even if it's good. So many people are using software these days that hardware is not as cool as it used to be. To me it is, but it's not for many people. Especially at this part of internet

They were initially $666, but Jared may have raised the price at some point.

[thecontrolcentre]

I paid £50 for my Teisco 60F in 1995, and £80 for my MOOG Opus 3 in 2010 ... I also picked up a Studio Electronics ATC-1 for £200 in 2009. I expect I'd easily make a profit if I sold any of them, but as I got them to make music, NOT as investments, their value (£) is irrelevent. They're worth more to me as musical instruments.

Happy birthday Mike (it was mine on the 10th)

[trimph1]

I paid £50 for my Teisco 60F in 1995, and £80 for my MOOG Opus 3 in 2010 ... I also picked up a Studio Electronics ATC-1 for £200 in 2009. I expect I'd easily make a profit if I sold any of them, but as I got them to make music, NOT as investments, their value (£) is irrelevent. They're worth more to me as musical instruments.

Happy birthday Mike (it was mine on the 10th)

Happy Birthdays to the both of you as well as a very belated one to Dave.......

I see the hardware I have as a good investment, but for the use of them, not so much for the monetary value...my stock portfolio does that for me I've gone and also built my own modular synth as well.

But that is like that with guitars for me as well...I buy them based on their use value..not monetary value.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Happy birthday belatedly also from myself and fam Dave, Hope you had a good one

I know guitar amps are much different from synthesizers but FWIW i have never lost money on bits i have bought with the intention of selling them on, I have made a profit. I did it just when the credit crunch first hit over here and some people shit thier pants and were selling stuff relatively dirt cheap. So picked up a Mesa Dual Recto in really good condition for £800, Re-Valved it and had a few months of fun at home with it (used the things alot anyway so i knew what i was buying anyway) then sold it on for £1250 as but one example. I could go seek out a bargain today and make money on it but i got no pleasure from doing it so i will only do it again if i am looking to make some easy money.

Otherwise i just buy my gear with no intention to sell it as its personal/for me. If in the future its worth more than i got it for then fine but it would not influence me in any way/motivate me to sell it on for profit. I do not collect stuff i use it/abuse it...Its MINE

All the best

Dean

[trimph1]

I wonder what the Arp2600 would sound like with a Mesa Dual Recto in full throat....

[Dean Aka Nekro]

I wonder what the Arp2600 would sound like with a Mesa Dual Recto in full throat....

Not on the modern/red channel but on the Classic/Orange channel which personally i prefer as it can go more subtle dirt to plenty of gain IMVHHO plus a more filthy mid-range voicing (ala Boogie MKIV) could be alot of fun i would imagine...Only one way to really find out Barry Chances are your guitars will sound pretty damned good through it in my much less humble honest opinion regarding that

[thecontrolcentre]

Happy Birthdays to the both of you as well as a very belated one to Dave.......

Happy birthday belatedly also from myself and fam Dave, Hope you had a good one

Thanks guys ... I spent it with my daughter. Had a lovely time

[dsynth27]

I agree with ghettosynth...
I have sold and bought many hardware synths and years after I bought them I was able to either make a profit or reclaim much of my money.

I have also bought many great software synths and I have lost money every time...

Hardware keeps its value and if you are of the age/want of starting a family, etc. it is nice to have gear that you only need to purchase once and can last you a lifetime with the need of one or no repairs.

I see software as a constant investment of capital...you never feel that you can sit on the sidelines. You always seem to feel the need to buy the newest one or become left out of all the hype(whether justified or not).

I love both but at least with hardware I know it will work in the future without the need to buy a new computer etc.

Software is fun because there is always something to look forward to but that is also a drawback for me. (rapid change) The excitement of software in a way is because the industry is not stable or fully come of age....a good/bad thing depending on your perspective and wallet!