Diva Vs. Real Analog

[Aroused by JarJar]

My principle electronic instrument is Csound. Csound has been around since the mid '80s, and if you want to be academic about it and trace it back through ports and developement, you could well say it dates from the 1950's ('57 to be exact).

Sure there is lots of fly-by-night software. Software and software synthesis itself is not so flimsy.

Of course the more DIY, hardware or software, you do the more your perspective changes about these things and you think more in terms of tools, raw materials, semi-products etc. It's a different perspective from those who want to just "plug and play".

So, a lot of these arguments can be settled like this: "Well, it depends..."

[whyterabbyt]

People who say that VSTi's don't have any maintenance costs need to think about it again.

Actually, I think you need to think again, about what a 'maintenance cost' actually entails.

New computer every once in a while: 1000-2000 euros.

Define 'once in a while' for a fixed set of plugins which already work on an existing system. Because acquiring new or updated plugins which require a more powerful system doesn't actually count as 'maintenance'.

New version for product A, B and C 500€ etc. This never ends.

This isn't maintenance, its updates, and there's a personal choice as to when it ends. So it doesnt count.

Making music costs money. There is no way around it even if you use a computer with 100% free software.

No, it doesnt necessarily cost money, not as a recurrence. It might involve an initial cost, or it might not, but thats not the cost of making music, that's the cost of preparing to make music. You could make music for nothing with the contents of a skip, if you were so inclined.
Even recording music only need require an up-front cost, and since many people use computer equiment they would have already owned, even recording neednt be a new, dedicated cost.

[ghettosynth]

I really like the sound of my soft synths today. Since the sound will not degrade over time, the sound will be the same or better in 5 or 10 years.

You've said that. For most people, that isn't really true, well, of course they'll sound the same, but the quality will be insufficient. If this were not the case, there would not be so much focus on innovation and so much marketing effort focused on higher quality "more analog" sound.

I mean, if Zebra was the end all and be all, why even bother with Diva? It's not just differentiated with features, it's differentiated with sound quality derived from technology that takes advantage of more capable machines.

I know guys who still think that the M1 is the bees knees and no other live keyboard is necessary, but they are in the minority, as you will be in a few years.

If an analog synth is the end all and be all why have you purchased more than one? Clearly your analog synth purchases have been inadequate since you have made further purchases.

Anyone who did music in the days before daws and inexpensive multitrack should know the answer to that question. You buy multiple synths for polyphony. You bought synths in the 80s so you should know that. In the 90s it was very common to get virtual tracks using a pure midi sequencer and mixing down to one or two tracks on your (4 or 8 track) multitrack.

I sold most of them when I no longer had room for decent home studio and now, for the most part, I need very few. The analogs that I'm keeping I'm only keeping for one of three reasons. 1) they have value (and aren't ubiquitous), and I am in no hurry to sell them, 2) they are great live instruments which software can't as easily replace, and 3) It's my homemade modular which has pretty much replaced all of my monosynths, softsynths have replaced my polys.

The synths that I purchased recently were purchased for parts. They work fine, but it's cheaper to buy bargain polys for certain parts than it is to buy the parts from parts vendors.

And the reason I build synths has more to do with enjoying building than because I need a particular sound.

And you talk as if analog automatically is better. That is only your opinion.

I never said any such thing. My claim is that analog is analog, and attempts to model it in digital aren't there yet. You want to model an M1, it's trivial, a DX7, that's trivial too. I wouldn't waste a nickle on FM hardware because FM8 sounds better than anything vintage that you can buy.

Dude, this is a thread about DIVA. We are talking about analog soft synths. If you want to talk about something else, then it's a different discussion. Digital hardware doesn't hold its value, obviously, its just computers and they're subject to Moore's law as well. Except in rare instances, you'll lose your shirt on digital hardware.

[Kriminal]

Dude, this is a thread about DIVA.

this thread stopped being about Diva 40 pages ago

[ghettosynth]

People who say that VSTi's don't have any maintenance costs need to think about it again.

Actually, I think you need to think again, about what a 'maintenance cost' actually entails.

Computers need maintenance like synths need maintenance. It's hardware, parts fail. Ram fails, fans fail, if you use a controller it's subject to the same types of failures synths are subject to.

Most of my synths have had zero need for maintenance, unless you count occasional re-trimming, but that's user maintenance on the same level as re-installing your own OS.

[thecontrolcentre]

If an analog synth is the end all and be all why have you purchased more than one?

They sound different, and can be used together at gigs (for example) to create complete tunes. Pretty obvious really.

[mcnoone]

Diva sounds better than the crinkle of my crusties.
The end.

[whyterabbyt]

Computers need maintenance like synths need maintenance.

Which was my point. Dont call something maintenance when it isnt. The list of claimed 'maintanence costs' I was replying to was nothing of the kind.

[trimph1]

So you honestly like having to recall presets?

I do not need to recall presets...I use a patchbook....

[trimph1]

Diva sounds better than the crinkle of my crusties.
The end.

eeewwwwww....

[Aroused by JarJar]

I never said any such thing. My claim is that analog is analog, and attempts to model it in digital aren't there yet. You want to model an M1, it's trivial, a DX7, that's trivial too. I wouldn't waste a nickle on FM hardware because FM8 sounds better than anything vintage that you can buy.

Dude, this is a thread about DIVA. We are talking about analog soft synths. If you want to talk about something else, then it's a different discussion. Digital hardware doesn't hold its value, obviously, its just computers and they're subject to Moore's law as well. Except in rare instances, you'll lose your shirt on digital hardware.

The idea that softsynths are emulating "analog" is actually not accurate. It's an illusion drummed up by ad-speak. Very little of the wide variety of analog sound is attempted in software. What is really attempted is a a handful of analog flavors principally as heard on recordings. (And that's really a footnote to stunning GUIs of course)

That whole heavy-but-bland Moog thing, the sonic mashed potatoes and gravy of magnificently side-burned dorks of yore, has been in demand, and so it is done. It has been done very well for a long time, and now it's pretty much nailed. You can tell it is nailed because those saying it is not are starting to grasp at straws for stuff that can't be emulated in blind tests.

What about the hard metallic thing, like the sound itself is made of metal, that analog synths, especially modulars, can do? I never hear anyone talking about the cold, hard sound of analog, yet that is also analog. And personally I like that kind of sound far more than Moogy mush. And I really like the old Ensoniq "coal dust" sound, that's one reason why I like ACE. And the PAiA airconditioning-ducts sound. Where's the emu of that? How about the whole pallette of Buchla randy-sarrusaphone sounds? Only the new Aalto does something like that (but total fail on the hard metallic body of the sound). How about all those truly vintage old discrete analog organs and bass synths that had that incredibly powerful electrical sound, also occurring in some large format modulars?

Nope, except for a few specific flavors, analog emulation isn't even being seriously attempted. Those elements that are seriously attempted, for instance in the eponymous Diva here, are remarkable.

[SJ_Digriz]

The idea that softsynths are emulating "analog" is actually not accurate. It's an illusion drummed up by ad-speak. Very little of the wide variety of analog sound is attempted in software. What is really attempted is a a handful of analog flavors principally as heard on recordings. (And that's really a footnote to stunning GUIs of course)

You might want to tell the guys who spend hours and hours with scopes and amp-meters carefully mapping out every signal path and working on mathematically accurate algorithms to represent the interactions about your theory.

[Aroused by JarJar]

The idea that softsynths are emulating "analog" is actually not accurate. It's an illusion drummed up by ad-speak. Very little of the wide variety of analog sound is attempted in software. What is really attempted is a a handful of analog flavors principally as heard on recordings. (And that's really a footnote to stunning GUIs of course)

You might want to tell the guys who spend hours and hours with scopes and amp-meters carefully mapping out every signal path and working on mathematically accurate algorithms to represent the interactions about your theory.

Gladly- first tell me who those guys are.

The vast majority of softsynth VA makers? No.

Let's see, I bet you I can guess who actually has done this. The "Xhip" crew, U-he, the guys who made Minimonsta. Notice these are Roland-y, and Moog-y, it's what people want (I don't).

Anyone else?

[Kriminal]

The idea that softsynths are emulating "analog" is actually not accurate. It's an illusion drummed up by ad-speak. Very little of the wide variety of analog sound is attempted in software.

but the sounds are still analogue emulations, so it is accurate, just not the variety you like/want, and you seem to be in a minority there

not that i care, just pointing it out

[Amberience]

I never said any such thing. My claim is that analog is analog, and attempts to model it in digital aren't there yet. You want to model an M1, it's trivial, a DX7, that's trivial too. I wouldn't waste a nickle on FM hardware because FM8 sounds better than anything vintage that you can buy.

Dude, this is a thread about DIVA. We are talking about analog soft synths. If you want to talk about something else, then it's a different discussion. Digital hardware doesn't hold its value, obviously, its just computers and they're subject to Moore's law as well. Except in rare instances, you'll lose your shirt on digital hardware.

The idea that softsynths are emulating "analog" is actually not accurate. It's an illusion drummed up by ad-speak. Very little of the wide variety of analog sound is attempted in software. What is really attempted is a a handful of analog flavors principally as heard on recordings. (And that's really a footnote to stunning GUIs of course)

That whole heavy-but-bland Moog thing, the sonic mashed potatoes and gravy of magnificently side-burned dorks of yore, has been in demand, and so it is done. It has been done very well for a long time, and now it's pretty much nailed. You can tell it is nailed because those saying it is not are starting to grasp at straws for stuff that can't be emulated in blind tests.

What about the hard metallic thing, like the sound itself is made of metal, that analog synths, especially modulars, can do? I never hear anyone talking about the cold, hard sound of analog, yet that is also analog. And personally I like that kind of sound far more than Moogy mush. And I really like the old Ensoniq "coal dust" sound, that's one reason why I like ACE. And the PAiA airconditioning-ducts sound. Where's the emu of that? How about the whole pallette of Buchla randy-sarrusaphone sounds? Only the new Aalto does something like that (but total fail on the hard metallic body of the sound). How about all those truly vintage old discrete analog organs and bass synths that had that incredibly powerful electrical sound, also occurring in some large format modulars?

Nope, except for a few specific flavors, analog emulation isn't even being seriously attempted. Those elements that are seriously attempted, for instance in the eponymous Diva here, are remarkable.

DCAM Synth Squad. End of argument.