avoiding excessive stereo spreading/panning? your methods used in the mixing process?

[bigdaveo11]

I frequently come across discussion regarding phase/polarity cancellations and mixing in mono vs stereo. Although I have not experimented very much with panning sounds as a method of making instruments fit better in the mix, Ive been wanting to ask some other producers further down the road than I am on how they approach this. I know these techniques are used to make sounds feel wider as well as help them fit in the mix...

Can you guys give me some personal examples on when you like to use panning? do you mix completely in mono? is panning/using the stereo field a effective way of making instruments fit with each other? (I am familiar with EQ, volume faders and reverb as other techniques to help sounds have their own place in the mix). I listen to lots of electronic music (mostly house/trance) and the placement of sounds in the mix is incredibly clear, especially in trance today where lots of small sounds are used simultaneously.

Apologies for the wordy question (s). I appreciate any responses as well as your time.

[filter303]

This is a good question.
Many of the mixing guides talk about "normal" band music. And many of the advices in these guides don't apply to electronic music IMO.
They talk about guitars, vocals etc. Stuff that I don't have in my music.
Some of the sounds in my music can be so weird that I don't even know what category they belong into.

I understand compression, eq or pretty much everything else when it comes to mixing. But panning is the thing I find to be very troublesome for me. I certainly don't like my mixes to sound like big mono, but unfortunately often they do.
If I happen to be happy with the stereo image, it's probably because I am having a good luck with my decisions.
I really wish that I had more practical guidelines on how to pan the sounds.
I love being creative when mixing, but I would really like to learn the "rules" on what works and what does not with panning.

If I pan any of the drumsounds it starts to annoy me so much. I just can't find myself doing it. So my drumbuss sounds very mono. Except for any reverb sounds.
I know it's good to keep vocals and bass sounds in the middle. But thats about it.

I guess that am I used to creating the stereo image with effects like choruses, delays and autopanners. Or using a stereo spread from the synth itself. Sometimes it works and sometimes something else is needed.
I would definitely like to learn how to pan properly before I start filling the tracks with fx.

Can anyone please answer the OP's question?

[Dean Aka Nekro]

I use/depend on Mid/Side processing which enables alot of flexability even on a full mix it can really enable one to reach in and adjust things that using regular L/R processing. I do also sometimes track using a mid/side mic configuration. Its great i find, Worth looking into anyway IMveryhumbleHO

All the best

Dean

[Sampleconstruct]

When using many wide stereo synth/electronic sounds within a mix it helps a lot to distribute the stereo fields so that e.g. you shift the whole stereo axis to the left/right side to make some space in the center position. So one synth could be panned hard left/ R 10 - the other one L10/R 40 - and yet another one Center/hard right - or you can narrow the stereo field to e.g. 70% and the shift the whole axis to the left/right.
Mid/side processing also helps as mentioned above but I don't use it so much on single synth tracks, more on the Master Outs or on Busses.

[dark_virus]

I don't see much sense in panning, at least for EDM. When you listen a common House track, the sound is spread across the field, and it's nearly impossible to identify where that hat or that percussion comes from.

So I came to the conclusion that these guys mix it in mono, then apply a stereo plugin in the master bus and voila: instant "comes from all direction" sound!

Can't speak for other styles, but I think they pretty much do the same.

[Zombie Queen]

I reckon a good mix should sound good in mono, so you probably should check how it does hold when summed to mono at some point. My observation was that stereo panning doesn't work very well in lowest frequencies, while it may sound cool on headphones, it can really suck on speakers, especially in some low-end configuration. So I often mono-ize just the bottom end. (BTW Wasn't it the procedure in vinyl mastering? I think I read somewhere that excessive low frequency stereo panning would bounce stylus out of the track)

[deleted]

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[qa2pir]

I regard stereo imaging as something of a cheat, less musically essential than pretty much everything else. maybe you could adopt some of this thinking. I struggle with making things stereo at all but getting better lately.

[randy4me]

I don't see much sense in panning, at least for EDM. When you listen a common House track, the sound is spread across the field, and it's nearly impossible to identify where that hat or that percussion comes from.

So I came to the conclusion that these guys mix it in mono, then apply a stereo plugin in the master bus and voila: instant "comes from all direction" sound!

Can't speak for other styles, but I think they pretty much do the same.

Makes a lot of sense. Going to start experimenting. There is a lot of good music out there with drums coming out of nowhere. Especially with hi hats. Been trying to figure this out for awhile. Always thought it was some sort of compression technique.

[synthgeek]

Most of the time, something will sound to me like it should be panned in a certain spot, and once that's done, it's a matter of balancing everything else (this may happen more than once in a given project). If everything sounds ok, I don't worry about it, unless I'm using it as an effect in some way. That would include stuff like panning layered guitars as well as autopanning & the like.

[IELMusic]

Well, I find stereo spread and panning to be very essential and too often under-used in popular music today. I like to get really creative with panning and really move things around (plus I layer A LOT, so it helps give everything a greater sense of space and makes it fit together a little better). So, what I do is pan as much as I want and use as much stereo spreading/ auto-panning/ tremolo as I see fit during the production stage, then during mixing I'll slap on a phase correlation meter and force the master buss into mono and LOOK for phasing on the meter and LISTEN for it in the mix. If I see it, but don't hear anything unpleasant (as phasing can occasionally create nice side effects), then I don't worry about it. But, if some of the elements get lost, or become weak, then I start muting tracks until I find which ones are cancelling one another and tweak the EQing and panning on those tracks until they fit together better. That way, I can have my deep panning and wide stereo field, without phase problems. Sure, it requires a lot of going back to check things, and a lot of micro-management, but I like that kinda thing anyway. Just my two cents.

[bigdaveo11]

great responses guys, really appreciate the advice/opinions. I just came across a part in the mixing engineers handbook where they relate to dance music, suggesting to avoid panning to the extremes and keep it from 10-1:30ish but of course this is just a suggestions.

this may seem like a stupid question but can someone explain to me the difference between panning and stereo spreading? I thought they were the same? or does panning involve constant motion of a sound between left/right sides.

Hopefully my music would mainly be played in club atmospheres which are mostly mono, so I know checking in mono is important for the genre I am producing. I suppose as long as the sound doesn't disappear in mono or the quality doesn't significantly change when summed to mono that I would be "good to go" if you will.

thx again.

[synthgeek]

this may seem like a stupid question but can someone explain to me the difference between panning and stereo spreading? I thought they were the same? or does panning involve constant motion of a sound between left/right sides.

Panning is usually used to refer to the placement of sounds in the stereo field, and can refer to mono or stereo sources. If the sound is stereo, this could more correctly be called "balance" in its simplest form (that is, the volume of the left side compared to the right, like a home stereo system), though things can get more complicated with some hosts or plug-ins.

Stereo spread is only applicable to stereo sources, and refers more to the separation of the left & right sides. This can be manipulated by panning the individual channels towards the center (having the same signal in both channels is the same as mono) as opposed to fully left or right. Other tricks like a slight delay on one side or M/S (mid/side) processing can also be used.

I suppose as long as the sound doesn't disappear in mono or the quality doesn't significantly change when summed to mono that I would be "good to go" if you will.

Yep.

[osiris]

Does anyone use a meter to check stereo image? I've been using Voxengo SPAN which has something called (I think) a Phase Correlation Meter. According to the help file 0 is okay, +1 is okay, but when it gets into the -1 territory you have issues.
I've been using the Stereo Tool in FL to correct this because it had delay and phase controls.
Is this a proper way to control stereo image?
Is it okay to dip into the negative values, for just a few seconds?
Would love some help.
Thanks.

[Sampleconstruct]

Does anyone use a meter to check stereo image? I've been using Voxengo SPAN which has something called (I think) a Phase Correlation Meter. According to the help file 0 is okay, +1 is okay, but when it gets into the -1 territory you have issues.
I've been using the Stereo Tool in FL to correct this because it had delay and phase controls.
Is this a proper way to control stereo image?
Is it okay to dip into the negative values, for just a few seconds?
Would love some help.
Thanks.

Dipping into the negative zone will only cause issues when the audio is played back mono (cancellation effects) - you'll have no harmful issues in stereo, besides your brain getting a bit dizzy with a permanent negative correlation...