avoiding excessive stereo spreading/panning? your methods used in the mixing process?
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- KVRian
- 538 posts since 7 Apr, 2007 from Melbourne, Australia
I've been analysing alot of my favorite music and mixes lately (of many different genres) and I'm surprised about just how much stuff is quite narrow in the stereo field and instruments have not been panned greatly away from the centre image. I think 'w,ell my mixes sound wider, but do they sound better?' and Im not so sure they do.
A couple of things: its very easy, especially with using samples and synths, to quickly end with a whole bunch of sound sources that are stereo. Its good to ask yourself if they really need to be stereo. When you have a whole range of winde sound sources competing together, panning is the least of your problems. Nothing will be able to stand out.
Its like when I hear an amazing buildup or FX sound and think it sounds so full and wide and huge but, in reality, it is standing out from the crowd because everything else in the mic is relatively centred.
Apart from mono compatability, theres something to be said in keeping things in the middle, and only allowing those sounds that you want to stand out in the side stereo image. When I listen to music in the car or other places, I barely notice or care about what is panned where - its only in headphones or in the studio that those things seem to make themselves relevant. These days Im trying to take a more 'mono' approach and I think my mixes are improving because of it.
Jim
A couple of things: its very easy, especially with using samples and synths, to quickly end with a whole bunch of sound sources that are stereo. Its good to ask yourself if they really need to be stereo. When you have a whole range of winde sound sources competing together, panning is the least of your problems. Nothing will be able to stand out.
Its like when I hear an amazing buildup or FX sound and think it sounds so full and wide and huge but, in reality, it is standing out from the crowd because everything else in the mic is relatively centred.
Apart from mono compatability, theres something to be said in keeping things in the middle, and only allowing those sounds that you want to stand out in the side stereo image. When I listen to music in the car or other places, I barely notice or care about what is panned where - its only in headphones or in the studio that those things seem to make themselves relevant. These days Im trying to take a more 'mono' approach and I think my mixes are improving because of it.
Jim
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- KVRist
- 253 posts since 15 Nov, 2009 from Chicago
You are correct sir! Contrary to popular belief most club systems are not in mono. At least not nowadays. Dancefloors are all different shapes and sizes. If you have a wide mix it will sound different depending where you are standing. If you have a nice solid tight mix it will sound the same no matter where you are. Whether the system is in mono or stereo.Atardecer wrote:I've been analysing alot of my favorite music and mixes lately (of many different genres) and I'm surprised about just how much stuff is quite narrow in the stereo field and instruments have not been panned greatly away from the centre image. I think 'w,ell my mixes sound wider, but do they sound better?' and Im not so sure they do.
A couple of things: its very easy, especially with using samples and synths, to quickly end with a whole bunch of sound sources that are stereo. Its good to ask yourself if they really need to be stereo. When you have a whole range of winde sound sources competing together, panning is the least of your problems. Nothing will be able to stand out.
Its like when I hear an amazing buildup or FX sound and think it sounds so full and wide and huge but, in reality, it is standing out from the crowd because everything else in the mic is relatively centred.
Apart from mono compatability, theres something to be said in keeping things in the middle, and only allowing those sounds that you want to stand out in the side stereo image. When I listen to music in the car or other places, I barely notice or care about what is panned where - its only in headphones or in the studio that those things seem to make themselves relevant. These days Im trying to take a more 'mono' approach and I think my mixes are improving because of it.
Jim
My advice is to make and it sound good in mono and then it will sound great in stereo.
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
Can I ask why? Who listens in mono anymore, except in the subwoofer range?Zombie Queen wrote:I reckon a good mix should sound good in mono
Dave Pensado himself stated on his YouTube show that mono is dead and there's little or no reason to be concerned about it now.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
How did you establish this? Mono and stereo mixes are totally unlike one another, why would making a great mix in one format automatically translate to the other?randy4me wrote: My advice is to make and it sound good in mono and then it will sound great in stereo.
My advice to anyone who is unsure about panning is this: limit yourself to three pan positions, left, right, and center. Put most of your bass content in the center, and put your polyphonic and supporting voices on the sides. Put your kick drum dead center. If you are working with real stereo mic pairs then you will have things panned around in between, but otherwise try doing only three pan positions. It's not that hard, and will yield noticeable instrument separation which will help to lessen the effects of masking.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRist
- 253 posts since 15 Nov, 2009 from Chicago
My alarm clock radio? I could care less if it's in mono or stereo as long as i hit the shower at some point.A.M. Gold wrote:Can I ask why? Who listens in mono anymore,Zombie Queen wrote:I reckon a good mix should sound good in mono
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
Yea, you got me there, forgot about clock radios.
I don't know, though, I'm seriously averse to the idea of crafting my mix just so it will work on a clock radio. But maybe that's just me...
I don't know, though, I'm seriously averse to the idea of crafting my mix just so it will work on a clock radio. But maybe that's just me...
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRist
- 253 posts since 15 Nov, 2009 from Chicago
Im talking about somewhere in between. A happy medium. Translating on a dancefloor no matter where you are standing. Whether the system is mono or stereo. A mono or near mono mix will sound great no matter the club sound system or dancefloor.A.M. Gold wrote:How did you establish this? Mono and stereo mixes are totally unlike one another, why would making a great mix in one format automatically translate to the other?randy4me wrote: My advice is to make and it sound good in mono and then it will sound great in stereo.
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
Maybe in a club, but what about when people listen on their earbuds and iPhone/pod, or in their car?
Mono will always work, but it's not very interesting in many respects. It is always "safest" to make a fairly mono mix, but you are sacrificing a lot of the pleasing effect that stereo can offer. I personally don't care that much about clubs either, and the reason for that is that the vast majority of music these days is listened to by people on their own personal systems, be it with a portable player, a bookshelf system, or in their car.
And to speak to the issue of hearing one side of stereo stronger than another, my dad, who is 73, is completely deaf in one ear and he prefers to listen to music on his headphones, so go figure.
Mono will always work, but it's not very interesting in many respects. It is always "safest" to make a fairly mono mix, but you are sacrificing a lot of the pleasing effect that stereo can offer. I personally don't care that much about clubs either, and the reason for that is that the vast majority of music these days is listened to by people on their own personal systems, be it with a portable player, a bookshelf system, or in their car.
And to speak to the issue of hearing one side of stereo stronger than another, my dad, who is 73, is completely deaf in one ear and he prefers to listen to music on his headphones, so go figure.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRist
- 253 posts since 15 Nov, 2009 from Chicago
A.M. Gold wrote:Maybe in a club, but what about when people listen on their earbuds and iPhone/pod, or in their car?
Mono will always work, but it's not very interesting in many respects. It is always "safest" to make a fairly mono mix, but you are sacrificing a lot of the pleasing effect that stereo can offer. I personally don't care that much about clubs either, and the reason for that is that the vast majority of music these days is listened to by people on their own personal systems, be it with a portable player, a bookshelf system, or in their car.
And to speak to the issue of hearing one side of stereo stronger than another, my dad, who is 73, is completely deaf in one ear and he prefers to listen to music on his headphones, so go figure.
I totally agree! Most dance/club music is listened to on their ipod/ computer speakers while beating off to porn. Ultimately it has to be played in a club by a dj. I'm talking about narrow stereo mixes. Completely mono mixes bore me to death. Making a stereo mix narrow enough to work in a club is what im all about.
Cheers!-
- KVRAF
- 20937 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
If you're going to do this, just use one side and mute the other. There are several free plug-ins that allow you to do it easily.Brouwers wrote:So if I understand correcly you guys make some percussion mono and then pan it? So it takes in less room in the stereo mix?
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
Well, that's a personal choice, and not one I would ever make, unless I was doing some kind of specific "club" mix, but I appreciate the advice.randy4me wrote:Ultimately it has to be played in a club by a dj. I'm talking about narrow stereo mixes. Completely mono mixes bore me to death. Making a stereo mix narrow enough to work in a club is what im all about.
I can't live without LCR panning so doing something that is fairly close to mono would be impossible for me.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRian
- 538 posts since 7 Apr, 2007 from Melbourne, Australia
LCR panning is fine but a point some people are making (well at least I am) is that there are various shades of grey in terms of L/R. Whether you hard left/right something, narrow the width of a stereo source from hard left to centre or narrow the width of a stereo source to mono and then place in at 45 degrees in the stereo field - all have a quite different effect. Im finding that 'mono-izing' or narrowing sounds to a degree (not true mono) is providing good results for me.I dont really use hard left/right as I find it somewhat distracting.
Then again, you can always just throw all that out the window and do whatever you want. I remember a Fourtet track I had been listening to for years. Never even noticed that he'd panned the kick drum to the right until I'd listened to it in my studio. And then I realised I didnt really care either way
Then again, you can always just throw all that out the window and do whatever you want. I remember a Fourtet track I had been listening to for years. Never even noticed that he'd panned the kick drum to the right until I'd listened to it in my studio. And then I realised I didnt really care either way
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
Well, there are actually quite a few LCR Nazis out there ( 
kidding, kidding ) and many of them are seasoned pros, but I don't use LCR as any kind of hard rule. I can hear in between panning on some sources and sometimes put percussion elements in between. Sometimes loading up the extreme sides is indeed a little too much, but it depends on the instruments and mix. Some people don't want that kind of width, others insist on it. Sometimes your middle is too thin in certain mixes so it feels better to pull the left and right in somewhat.
I only spoke up because I don't think there is really any obligation to make things "work" in mono like there was many years ago, except in the subwoofer range, but mono low bass sounds better anyway, even on a stereo mix.
kidding, kidding ) and many of them are seasoned pros, but I don't use LCR as any kind of hard rule. I can hear in between panning on some sources and sometimes put percussion elements in between. Sometimes loading up the extreme sides is indeed a little too much, but it depends on the instruments and mix. Some people don't want that kind of width, others insist on it. Sometimes your middle is too thin in certain mixes so it feels better to pull the left and right in somewhat. I only spoke up because I don't think there is really any obligation to make things "work" in mono like there was many years ago, except in the subwoofer range, but mono low bass sounds better anyway, even on a stereo mix.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 3645 posts since 27 Nov, 2003 from beach side australia
Probably slightly off topic from the more technical discussion here but i'm finding that running my whole mix thru something like sknotes 'cuttertone' is giving me nice results- just basically narrowing selected bass range then also the whole mix a little too seems to give me a bit more cohesive feel
(it also is attenuating/smoothing the highs and adding some mild compression which is adding to that 'tightening up' too)
(it also is attenuating/smoothing the highs and adding some mild compression which is adding to that 'tightening up' too)