KVR Audio

breakmixer · Post by **breakmixer** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:49 pm

Here's a problem I've got...

I make an 8 bar loop, this features drums, bassline, chord progression, lead and some vocals - and I'm happy with it...

My friend comes around and we arrange just them 8 bar loops into a 5 minute track, dropping things in and out - but I'm not convinced, it seems to repetitive,

now the 8 bars I've created I'm not sure is a chorus or verse type section, so I try to make another 8 bars with a different bassline/chord progression, but whatever I do sounds like a different track, why do I find it so hard to create a section that's different but that sounds natural.

I play and write by ear...

It's dance music(Breaks), but I am trying to work without vocals but making tracks that would require a vocal when finished, i.e. rapped verses and rapped/chanted or sung chorus'.

It's the biggest hurdle I've got to get over, I'm not happy making a 5 minute track with the same bassline running throughout. That's not what I'm aiming for...

If you need me to upload my 8 bars let me know how so you can hear and understand me more, so you can stream it from this post...

BERFAB · Post by **BERFAB** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:13 pm

You need to decide if it's a chorus, verse or middle 8 first. From your description, it sounds killer and memorable which, to me, says "chorus." So try writing a verse leading up to it. Typically, you might have two verses leading into a chorus, then another verse, then Chorus, then an instrumental break, middle 8 and then chorus. The formula gets shuffled around quite a bit, but the elements usually stay the same.

Also, make sure you're keeping everything in the same key with the same instrumentation for consistency.

Good luck
-B

breakmixer · Post by **breakmixer** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:35 pm

BERFAB wrote:You need to decide if it's a chorus, verse or middle 8 first. From your description, it sounds killer and memorable which, to me, says "chorus." So try writing a verse leading up to it. Typically, you might have two verses leading into a chorus, then another verse, then Chorus, then an instrumental break, middle 8 and then chorus. The formula gets shuffled around quite a bit, but the elements usually stay the same.

Also, make sure you're keeping everything in the same key with the same instrumentation for consistency.

Good luck
-B

I normally write the section after and see how it feels following on from what is already there sounding fine, then when it loops back to the first section again it sounds wrong - I find it really easy to write 8 bars, just not a different complimentary section either verse/chorus types, I do try and use the same instruments...

Do I sound confused? I am

even Paul Hardcastle 19 had a bassline change where it goes darker sounding.

jopy · Post by **jopy** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:20 pm

practice, practice, practice. i don't think anyone can really help you with this one, it's just a matter of trying out lots of different transitions and building up experience with what works for you and what doesn't. i think this process takes forever, as in, one never stops learning how to build these transitions and changes in a compelling way.

breakmixer · Post by **breakmixer** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:23 pm

jopy wrote:practice, practice, practice. i don't think anyone can really help you with this one, it's just a matter of trying out lots of different transitions and building up experience with what works for you and what doesn't. i think this process takes forever, as in, one never stops learning how to build these transitions and changes in a compelling way.

Another musician said to me "You got to change the bass and chord progression at some point and when you do it, it's got to sound like a natural change".

This for me is the hardest part, without vocals(i.e. verse and chorus) to follow it's harder work, I almost feel that normally vocals come first and music is built around them with something to follow, but when you are work instrumentally without vocals it makes it harder...

I've had another bash at it, I've borrowed some bass note sequence from the chorus but changed it and instead of a chord progreesion it's just one chord repeated on the first beat of the bar, maybe I just need to do more striped back, less is more verse sections musically - I don't know...

It's seems easy on the tracks I listen to but when I try and do my own thing, not so...

Cheers, I will persist...

Mushy Mushy · Post by **Mushy Mushy** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:26 pm

Take out the bassline, extend it by 3 minutes and you've just finished a Minimal track

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:32 pm

I dont think you can learn a whole lot about it from someone talking about it. the thing to do is learn song structure from learning actual songs made by people that knew how to make them. you need to have it modeled.

8 bars, might work, might not do anything. a song's form is an organic thing, it's not so much a building.

knowing how to make contrast that works organically, internally with what comes before simply requires experience. so find records that do what you think is the thing to do and copy it, I mean copy all of it, be thorough.

skipscada · Post by **skipscada** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:41 pm

The obvious answer is to listen to tracks you like and focus on changes/continuity between track elements.

If you end up with something tthat sounds like a different track, you need more subtlety. Upping the intensity a little bit by introducing tiny changes to tempo (up), register (up) and adding frequencies (high) are enough. If you end up with too little difference between elements, you add typical "here comes the chorus" effects such as reversed cymbals, drops, or other "sit-up-and-listen" effects like orchestral stabs.

breakmixer · Post by **breakmixer** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:43 pm

Mushy Mushy wrote:Take out the bassline, extend it by 3 minutes and you've just finished a Minimal track

Maybe I should just rip an old 1 bar disco bassline, loop a kick drum, snare and open high hat and shout "Jack the Groove" repeatedly with one chord progression lasting 1 bar of something. lol..

No seriously that track I'm working on is a hybrid of old school funk boogie fused with breaks, called "Block Party Breaks". And I want to finish it, BERFAB was correct - I have created the chorus...It hit me when I listened to it after what he said...

I like fusing old school early 80's Electro and Funk styles with Nu Skool Breaks, so it's got to have that old school flavour to a point...

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:09 pm

Q: What do I need to do to after the first 8 bars?

My answer would be to write significantly more than 8 bars before starting to polish it. If you can complete a track's outline then you have a great basis to develop further.

breakmixer · Post by **breakmixer** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:28 pm

robojam wrote:Q: What do I need to do to after the first 8 bars?

My answer would be to write significantly more than 8 bars before starting to polish it. If you can complete a track's outline then you have a great basis to develop further.

I find I write a progression of 8 bars where it feels natural to loop again at the end of the 8 bars, my chord progressions start and finish within the 8 bars therefore making that a complete section - then comes the part where it should move on, different chord progression, change in bassline etc, then I could start to arrange, but that's where I get stuck, because I can't complement properly my first section musically...natural transition and end to go back to the first section(i.e. at the end of bar 16)...

Maybe when I've done I should upload my track to this thread so you guys can comment on if I'm doing it right or wrong, I fully realise I should be able to feel it - but what could be done to improve upon it, the different directions you can go are limitless - but it's choosing the correct one(style and notes played)...

I'm still sounding confused aren't I?

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:21 pm

I often wrestle with this problem. Where appropriate, my solution is to sit down and work out the whole song on piano before beginning any orchestration.

breakmixer · Post by **breakmixer** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:35 pm

deastman wrote:I often wrestle with this problem. Where appropriate, my solution is to sit down and work out the whole song on piano before beginning any orchestration.

So what I'm probably up against is possibly the biggest part of the art/hurdle in a peice of music, the hardest bit to do right(sounding good, complimentary and natural). The transition from one section to the other!

The peice I'm making has a rapped chant, then a short Talkbox vocal in the chorus, the verse section will be instrumental unless I manage to do a good track, then I'd think about getting a vocalist - but I'd only ever pay for that if I know I've done a tune worthy of it, I'm not in pie-in-the-sky dreamland anymore, if it's crud I'll know...

VibraSound · Post by **VibraSound** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:01 am

deastman wrote:my solution is to sit down and work out the whole song on piano before beginning any orchestration.

+ 1

skipscada · Post by **skipscada** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:25 am

VibraSound wrote:
deastman wrote:my solution is to sit down and work out the whole song on piano before beginning any orchestration.
+ 1 8)

My experience is also that the best end result comes when the track is first composed all the way through, then arranged, recorded and mixed as separate processes. I realise there are genres where that might not be feasible, but no matter what I think it is a good idea to have a fairly detailed plan before going to work. At the very least you need to know what you want to express. If you don't want to express anything, take up a different hobby. Or do a cover version.