avoiding excessive stereo spreading/panning? your methods used in the mixing process?

[Fixed Error]

Well, there are actually quite a few LCR Nazis out there ( kidding, kidding ) and many of them are seasoned pros, but I don't use LCR as any kind of hard rule. I can hear in between panning on some sources and sometimes put percussion elements in between. Sometimes loading up the extreme sides is indeed a little too much, but it depends on the instruments and mix. Some people don't want that kind of width, others insist on it. Sometimes your middle is too thin in certain mixes so it feels better to pull the left and right in somewhat.

I only spoke up because I don't think there is really any obligation to make things "work" in mono like there was many years ago, except in the subwoofer range, but mono low bass sounds better anyway, even on a stereo mix.

For surel, that old requirement of mixes being mono compatible doesnt really apply anymore, at the least, in the way it used to. I remember when I first got my Neve 8816 summing mixer - its got this cool stereo width option. I was thinking 'great, gonna get some nice added width to my mixes'. Tried it out and things sounded huge in the studio. Listened elsewhere and they sounded awful - the middle of the stereo image had just caved in and there was no punch in the mixes. I learnt my lesson

[A.M. Gold]

Yea, you don't want to overuse stereo width tricks. They can only compliment basic panning to achieve width, and also careful use of instruments throughout the stereo field. Don't misunderstand me---the middle is extremely important, and it's where some of the most important aspects of the mix should usually go.

[bigdaveo11]

once again appreciate all the discussion, has helped me understand this topic significantly. Producing mostly house music, therefore hoping my tracks will eventually be played mostly in clubs, been great to read everyone's posts regarding this.

[bigdaveo11]

this may seem like a stupid question but can someone explain to me the difference between panning and stereo spreading? I thought they were the same? or does panning involve constant motion of a sound between left/right sides.

Panning is usually used to refer to the placement of sounds in the stereo field, and can refer to mono or stereo sources. If the sound is stereo, this could more correctly be called "balance" in its simplest form (that is, the volume of the left side compared to the right, like a home stereo system), though things can get more complicated with some hosts or plug-ins.

Stereo spread is only applicable to stereo sources, and refers more to the separation of the left & right sides. This can be manipulated by panning the individual channels towards the center (having the same signal in both channels is the same as mono) as opposed to fully left or right. Other tricks like a slight delay on one side or M/S (mid/side) processing can also be used.

I suppose as long as the sound doesn't disappear in mono or the quality doesn't significantly change when summed to mono that I would be "good to go" if you will.

Yep.

Thank you for this! So as I understand/have read...Mono tracks have zero 'width'. The pan control determines how much of the signal goes to each side of the bus. Fully panned left sends 100% of the signal to the left speaker, and similarly when panned right. Straight up sends 50% to the left speaker and 50% to the right. so for stereo tracks 100% of the signal is spread both to the left and right???? I get so confused on this even though you explained it well. I guess what is the difference between panning a mono track and panning a stereo track in terms of the signal. I know these questions seem basic but understanding this will help me alot in determining how I place my sounds.

Thanks again guys.

[Keith99]

A stereo signal has two channels, a left and a right containing a different signal. When panning you basically control the volume of each side. So if you pan a stereo signal to the left the left side is increased in volume while the right is decreased by the same amount.

[Keith99]

and in mono you just have one channel whose volume in the left and right can be controlled by the pan. But its the same signal in each channel.

[Keith99]

Bah I keep posting before finishing what I was going to say

You might want to use a mid/side processor to investigate stereo signals, it can be very interesting. With a mid/side processor the mid is just the left added to the right while the side is the right signal minus the left signal. If you convert a stereo signal to mono by summing the side is what you lose.

[warrior545]

This is a good question.
Many of the mixing guides talk about "normal" band music. And many of the advices in these guides don't apply to electronic music IMO.
They talk about guitars, vocals etc. Stuff that I don't have in my music.
Some of the sounds in my music can be so weird that I don't even know what category they belong into.

I understand compression, eq or pretty much everything else when it comes to mixing. But panning is the thing I find to be very troublesome for me. I certainly don't like my mixes to sound like big mono, but unfortunately often they do.
If I happen to be happy with the stereo image, it's probably because I am having a good luck with my decisions.
I really wish that I had more practical guidelines on how to pan the sounds.
I love being creative when mixing, but I would really like to learn the "rules" on what works and what does not with panning.

If I pan any of the drumsounds it starts to annoy me so much. I just can't find myself doing it. So my drumbuss sounds very mono. Except for any reverb sounds.
I know it's good to keep vocals and bass sounds in the middle. But thats about it.

I guess that am I used to creating the stereo image with effects like choruses, delays and autopanners. Or using a stereo spread from the synth itself. Sometimes it works and sometimes something else is needed.
I would definitely like to learn how to pan properly before I start filling the tracks with fx.

Can anyone please answer the OP's question?

I would advice you to read in http://musicdm.wordpress.com/ a little in the basic mixing concept articles and videos, you will have there the right way to hear your music from a clear perspective and make better decision.

[bigdaveo11]

got it thanks keith99!

[highkoo]

I don't see much sense in panning, at least for EDM. When you listen a common House track, the sound is spread across the field, and it's nearly impossible to identify where that hat or that percussion comes from.

So I came to the conclusion that these guys mix it in mono, then apply a stereo plugin in the master bus and voila: instant "comes from all direction" sound!

Can't speak for other styles, but I think they pretty much do the same.

Yeah, its probably just haphazard and random.
Just slap a handy dandy multiband stereo plug on the master and draw a straight line from bass/mono to hies/stereo, and be done with it.

Makes a lot of sense.

Shit, not to me.

[randy4me]

Yeah, its probably just haphazard and random.

Your probably right. I just bought Panstation from Audio Damage it works great with percussion. Especially hi hats. You can really move them around where you cant tell where they are coming from. You can really get creative with it.

[knobs]

lol if you cant tell where theyre coming from, you aint listening

[randy4me]

lol if you cant tell where theyre coming from, you aint listening

What? I can't hear you.

I have a pretty good idea where its coming from.

If you get creative automating panstation you can get some interesting results. Then bump to audio and cut out well timed hits. Creates a different illusion when a sound was in the process of being panned. Especially in the context of a song. You can also take those hits run them through the same process as many times as you like. Not sure if anyone else does this. Just having some fun with a new plugin.

[jancivil]

I always work in stereo. some things are reduced to the point where as far as how much space it uses in the field you may as well say it's mono, but most of my sources are stereo recordings and it isn't worthwhile to worry about it. if I get a vocal or a horn solo from a remote session, though, I want mono, I wouldn't want to worry about someone's stereo recording capabilities and a single part in a mix may as well be mono, particularly a lead vocal or horn, I'm going to focus it so it stands out anyway.

in a classic mix, drums are treated both particularly and generally, close mic'ing and OTOH overheads. the close mics tend to be a mono source, overheads a double-cardioid or X/Y to get a stereo sum and differences sitch.

'it should sound good in mono', I don't know why. I'm not gearing it to mono, so I just have no consideration what it's going to do there. I like the stereo field, I'm good at making it work, I don't get why a mono mix is interesting. Life is experienced in three spacial dimensions. I get why some things that were made that way in in ancient times don't work so well in pseudo-stereo, but that's another story.

a power panner (eg., Vienna Suite power panner; I believe Cubendo 'combined panner' does the same thing essentially) preserves the relationship of the stereo field in the source. if you move it, there is no gain or loss in the field you're 'leaving'. other panning can be problematic unless you want weirdness. Pan law is pretty crucial but I've already gone well verbose...

focusing things with this particular kind of tool clarifies a mix for stereo work. things are not in other things's way.

some things that are recorded extremely well in stereo can take up a wide berth and sound fantastic. Sometimes there is a lot of good 'air' in a sample... I look at the image like a stage, and I look at something called back-to-front which can be treated as an illusion and approached via pre- and post-levels in the power panner. and it can be dealt with on the level of the channel volume vs the send to the reverberation, more send and less channel volume with attention to the pre- and post- volumes in the panner itself, variously.

less diffuse/more focused = louder. if you summed to mono via cubendo 'dual panner', for instance, setting both sides to the same place, there will be a jump in the apparent volume.

the idea to do something in mono and it's going to translate to stereo because it was good mono or vice versa is not an examined idea.

[osiris]

I just found this great tool but haven't tried it yet:
http://www.toneprojects.com/products/plug-ins/basslane/

It's free and it monoizes everything under the frequency you set. Instructions were to put it after your stereo imager. I'm going to try this with Flux Stereo Tool and see how it works.