KVR Audio

Algar · Post by **Algar** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:57 pm

Too much noise I guess. I've got a huge 40-50 db dip around 3-4 khz. I've got the measurement graph... the other frequencies are fine. I guess I've had the problem for a long time because I haven't noticed any hearing degradation.

Glad at least I haven't got a nasty tinnitus. I only hear it in total silence.

So I guess I need some hardware or something to boost the 3-4khz. But boosting it by 50db seems quite extreme and might make everything sound even more unnatural... Or might ruin my hearing even more... Any suggestions?

What instruments generally play an important role in the 3-4khz area? Maybe I should just ignore the area and ask somebody else to do something about it when finalizing a mix.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:16 pm

in the mix I just finished, there is a piccolo flute part which (at midi note #85) shows some 4khz as the vibrato swells, and later at #96, 97 is showing a lot of 5khz apparently. there are charts which indicate these things.
I think that 5k will be the third partial. I didn't seek to boost that artificially.

but overall there is so much at around 3.5 khz that ignoring it here would alter it seriously.

Frank Zappa lost some highs hearing and started to put out mixes that showed it, kind of brittle, making up for what was missing...

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:29 pm

Algar wrote:I've got a huge 40-50 db dip around 3-4 khz.
[...]
So I guess I need some hardware or something to boost the 3-4khz.

That's way too much to compensate for. Better learn to live with it, and do check your mixes regulary with reference material and ask for second opinions.

FarleyCZ · Post by **FarleyCZ** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:45 pm

Wow and I thought my tinitus was ugly. Feel bad for you mate.

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:52 pm

any boost to compensate tends to damage the range of delicate physical structures already damaged

This is the irony of those with more general hearing loss who crank their TVs to volumes that are painful for others. It's accelerating the hearing loss.

Algar · Post by **Algar** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:51 am

wrench45us wrote:any boost to compensate tends to damage the range of delicate physical structures already damaged

This is the irony of those with more general hearing loss who crank their TVs to volumes that are painful for others. It's accelerating the hearing loss.

So in a way you could think that the more you use hearing aids the worse your hearing gets?

Glad 3-4 khz (3-6 allaround) doesn't seem to play a very important role. And it is a miracle that my tinnitus isn't bad from a 50db damage:)

I'll quit using headphones completely and start using cigarette filters when listening to live music.

deleted · Post by **deleted** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:44 pm

DELETED

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:13 pm

Algar wrote: Glad 3-4 khz (3-6 allaround) doesn't seem to play a very important role.

if you believe that, you're kidding yourself.

the honest thing I wanted to say but didn't out of sensitivity, and I'm sorry to say, is you should give serious consideration to the possibility you're done with being the judge of a mix, with damage this extensive in that range. if it was at 6k and above, it may not be extremely important, depending on what the material is. compensating at that range that will tend to make any number of things harsh for people that hear well. You're going to need another set of ears or what you mix will suffer.

that there aren't a lot of instruments that produce a fundamental there isn't very crucial information.

jkleban · Post by **jkleban** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:30 pm

This is the one thing I have feared my entire musical life. My ears are too important to let this happen but you know how it goes, everything sounds better louder. I have taught myself to take long breaks equal to my mixing time to let my ears settle down (usually 30 - 60 minutes mixing/tracking then 30-60 minute breaks). I have found that this actually improves my mixing for I avoid the dreaded ear fatigue (years ago I used to do mammoth mixing sessions and the next day I had to ask myself, what was I thinking yesterday. I finally realized that this was a major symptom of ear fatigue).

Anyway, I really feel bad for the OP because once your hearing goes, well you know.

Everybody, PROTECT your greatest asset in music.

Jim

PS - I have been doing music sessions since the late 60s.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:31 pm

Algar wrote:Too much noise I guess. I've got a huge 40-50 db dip around 3-4 khz. I've got the measurement graph... the other frequencies are fine. I guess I've had the problem for a long time because I haven't noticed any hearing degradation.

Glad at least I haven't got a nasty tinnitus. I only hear it in total silence.

So I guess I need some hardware or something to boost the 3-4khz. But boosting it by 50db seems quite extreme and might make everything sound even more unnatural... Or might ruin my hearing even more... Any suggestions?

What instruments generally play an important role in the 3-4khz area? Maybe I should just ignore the area and ask somebody else to do something about it when finalizing a mix.

This doesn't sound right to me at all. Do you mean 4-5 db dip? 40-50 db is so huge you're hearing would sound really strange and 3-4 khz is where a huge amount of lead instruments, including voice live. If this were true you'd not be hearing people when they talked to you and sang. How did you measure this? Did you see an audiologist? Also, human hearing in general is not linear at all in the first place, though the weak points are mostly in the low frequencies at low volumes (why things sound fuller when they're louder)

Not to encourage you to listen to music too loud, of course, but some old stereos had "loudness" buttons to compensate for this quirk of human hearing.

Anyway, regardless you should probably get checked out by a professional and as always, avoid loud shows and clubs. I refuse to go to most clubs and shows exactly because of this. I've never quite understood why they felt that the mains should be set on "kill" anyway. Kills your ears and sounds like sh!t. Ruins your voice too, as you have to scream to the cute girls instead of being able to use your low sexy voice.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:01 pm

zerocrossing wrote:
Algar wrote:Too much noise I guess. I've got a huge 40-50 db dip around 3-4 khz. I've got the measurement graph... the other frequencies are fine. I guess I've had the problem for a long time because I haven't noticed any hearing degradation.

Glad at least I haven't got a nasty tinnitus. I only hear it in total silence.

So I guess I need some hardware or something to boost the 3-4khz. But boosting it by 50db seems quite extreme and might make everything sound even more unnatural... Or might ruin my hearing even more... Any suggestions?

What instruments generally play an important role in the 3-4khz area? Maybe I should just ignore the area and ask somebody else to do something about it when finalizing a mix.

avoid loud shows and clubs. I refuse to go to most clubs and shows exactly because of this.

a huge +1 to this but you might want to take it further. I wear hearing protection even while vacuuming, of course when I'm using power tools and my hearing protection headphones are very close to me in the livingroom in case the damn smoke detector goes off. I'm very anal about how loud my home entertainment stuff is, I haven't been to a movie in over 10 years. At my age I am grateful, if you keep up your ways when you reach my age you too will be grateful. Just imagine how much will change over those years and what you will be able to do due to many reasons and then think to yourself what if when that time came your ears were shot...then what?

I know this very well but not by direct experience, someone I started playing guitar with as kids and stayed very close to until about 14 years ago destroyed his ears. He was a drummer too, his son was a drummer and they played extremely loud in a small room a lot (even just jamming by himself he always played way too loud)...he was (probably still is) a great carpenter and of course he didn't wear hearing protection. When I last spoke with him he told me when he turned on a saw it would cause loud white noise in his ears and was painful. That was 14 years ago...right at the same time I stepped into the world of digital recording with an Akai dps12...so I know what he is missing because I have been enjoying it...so please stick to your guns and protect your ears

toine6 · Post by **toine6** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:34 pm

Algar · Post by **Algar** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:20 am

zerocrossing wrote:
Algar wrote:Too much noise I guess. I've got a huge 40-50 db dip around 3-4 khz. I've got the measurement graph... the other frequencies are fine. I guess I've had the problem for a long time because I haven't noticed any hearing degradation.

Glad at least I haven't got a nasty tinnitus. I only hear it in total silence.

So I guess I need some hardware or something to boost the 3-4khz. But boosting it by 50db seems quite extreme and might make everything sound even more unnatural... Or might ruin my hearing even more... Any suggestions?

What instruments generally play an important role in the 3-4khz area? Maybe I should just ignore the area and ask somebody else to do something about it when finalizing a mix.
This doesn't sound right to me at all. Do you mean 4-5 db dip? 40-50 db is so huge you're hearing would sound really strange and 3-4 khz is where a huge amount of lead instruments, including voice live. If this were true you'd not be hearing people when they talked to you and sang. How did you measure this? Did you see an audiologist? Also, human hearing in general is not linear at all in the first place, though the weak points are mostly in the low frequencies at low volumes (why things sound fuller when they're louder)

It is a frigging 40-50db dip. V-shaped. 3 khz is till quite fine but there the downhill starts. They tested it with a beep test and I couldn't hear the said frequencies at all until they came very loud. They did the test twice. They are still going to do some tests to me...

I'm very bad at hearing what people sing. I've always thought that it was a problem with understanding

jobromedia · Post by **jobromedia** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:54 pm

Dude that's gotta suck. I dunno if any booster can help you out, most likely not, but please do be careful in the future.

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:58 pm

why don't hearing aids damage hearing more?
here's a somewhat technical answer from an audiologist

Hearing aids don't function in terms of dBHL since that is a formula used to simply create an audiogram where normal can be represented by a nice, pretty, fairly straight line. They function in terms of dBSPL which is the sound pressure level (SPL) of a sound when it reaches the tympanic membrane (eardrum). Sounds that are at the very extremes of frequencies (very low and high) have to have a higher SPL in order for us to hear them as opposed to the ones in the middle due to the natural resonance properties of the ear and how sound waves travel through air. The ear is not a linear system so 1 decibel of sound in does not equal 1 decibel of sound out...it varies by intensity and frequency of the sound.

Even high-frequency emphasis hearing aids aren't able to get 50 or 60dB of gain (volume) much beyond 3000Hz due to the limitations of the electronic components. Even if they could, people that would require this much volume at those frequencies wouldn't get any benefit (most likely) because amplifying sounds that much at those frequencies would cause a significant amount of distortion. Plus, they most likely have little-no functioning hair cells in the ear to send the signal to the brain to begin with (cochlear dead zones) so trying to stimulate something that is probably not there won't do any good.

If you combine all this and add in the limiting properties of the hearing aids, how the ear works, and the amount of gain needed to make speech audible, it results in very few people being amplified to a point where it causes further loss. Those that are, are generally in the severe-profound range in the low - mid frequencies and for them it doesn't really matter because they need to hear. It's a choice of hearing and having potential further loss or not hearing at all. I will also add that for most of these people the additional loss is minimal. I have a couple patients who, when I program their hearing aids, I get the dBSPL warning and their hearing hasn't changed at all over the past few years. It's a pretty high level also, usually around 125-130dBSPL...in order to exceed that their hearing has to be pretty bad.

My hearing is f**ked! What now?