Sampletank 3?

[zvenx]

......

Now, getting back to the idea that it's dated... I disagree. ...

And Steve Job's Distorted Reality Field lives on

rsp

[bobbybland]

the browser is bad in s2.5 no 64bit,the gui is terrible,unless using a magnifying glass,lets get real here please..

[zvenx]

I actually find the sounds more dated than even the gui.
rsp

[Squids]

Everyone's of course entitled to their opinion so no one is right or wrong here. But, I do disagree that the gui is terrible. There are a number of things I personally like about it. Besides what I said earlier about it not taking up too much space so you CAN see the DAW behind it as opposed to plug-ins that are 2-3 times the size and you have to switch back and forth or use multiple screens, I like the SPEED at which you can access the parameters and effects. You can do it all from one screen without having to do drop downs or flip through different pages and keep track of what's going on. Now, the trade off is that it can't do AS MUCH as other more complex sample-based instruments can but when you need to do more complex stuff you can go to those and when you need your meat and potatoes quick multi-timbral sounds or layering and sound design (particularly subtractive-based, granular or DSP processing-based) then you've got SampleTank and the benefits of its stream-lined compact interface.

If we're talking aesthetics that's too subjective. It's not my favorite looking instrument (I actually prefer the look of the powered by ST modules like SampleMoog and SampleTron). But, it's more important to me that I get work done than I'm looking at something pretty so actually I run all of my PBST plug-ins under the SampleTank GUI most of the time. Only when I need to browse to a different hard drive or I want someone in the studio to enjoy the personality of the interface do I call up STron or Smoog or Sonik Synth 2. But for all practical purposes I just load those sounds into SampleTank 2.5 and if I get tired of the red I just change the color which I do sometimes... but that is the least of my concern when using it.

Now, with regard to the text being small... it doesn't bother me. I wouldn't mind it being larger. I have pretty good eye sight though so I can imagine that being a bummer for anyone who doesn't... although there are ways to make it larger through screen resolution if someone really had a problem. But I agree it would just be nice if it was adjustable or straight up larger. ST3 IS larger so there you go... and it is 64 bit if that's a concern for you. As I said, it's not for me. At least not until ProTools finally goes 64 bit.

Getting back to the question of "out-dated"... one could argue that both ways. In terms of the specs like not being 64 bit yet sure. Although since ProTools 10 isn't either I don't know if "out-dated" would be a word anyone would describe that. So maybe just because it's been around for awhile you might think it's out-dated. But then again a lot of instruments have been around for awhile and they're not considered outdated. I think the main reason for that is if is still usable today and gives certain results that are desirable. SampleTank-based instruments are still used on albums today as much if not maybe more than when they first came out. More people have been turned onto it since. If you can call up Miroslav sounds or Tron sounds and get the results you can with SampleTank and PBST products then I would hardly call it out-dated. Not when I see it used (and use it myself) all the time.

If you knew how many people contact me even NOW who are JUST learning about SampleTank and the PBST workstation and XT2 range you'd probably be amazed. Some of them well known artists. It's very practical, easy to use, sounds great and gets results fast which is exactly what most musicians want. That and a great price. So, even though you guys may be more advanced than a lot of musicians who don't frequent KVR and you and I have seen some great plug-ins come along in the last 3 or more years with some impressive features it doesn't make SampleTank-based products any less useful (again apart from if you need 64 bit or some other compatibility-related update).

Boy this is turning into a classic Squids mega post. Anyone around here remember those? Been awhile. Anyway, listen, I run a sound company and we support a lot of formats. I can tell you the merits of each one from my perspective. They ALL have their place and their appeal. I am 100% FOR SampleTank being updated as soon as possible so I'm with you guys but I would hate for anyone to think that SampleTank 2.5 is obsolete. Only if in your system you can't use it. But otherwise it's a viable instrument useful for a lot of things that have not gone out of style.

[zvenx]

Dave, would you consider the Korg M1 and Roland D-50 as outdated?

rsp

[Squids]

I actually find the sounds more dated than even the gui.
rsp

It depends on the sounds you're talking about. The vintage sounds are MEANT to be dated. SampleTron sounds as good (or bad) as a Mellotron. SampleMoog accurately offers the flavors of Moog samples pretty well and more comprehensively across the range than anything else on the market even today. A lot of the sound design elements in Sonik Synth 2 are similar to what one might find in a synth workstation. All the rest of the sounds vary just like they would in ANY ram-based sample player. There will be times where it doesn't come close to the realism of a large sized sample instrument and there will be other times where something like a single Miroslav string patch sits right in the mix nicely and people ask "What did you use for those strings man?" (which is exactly what a well known singer - I won't say who - JUST asked me today in fact!). If the strings sounded like crap and inferior then I could accept the term "dated". But just because Vienna Symphony is more expressive and powerful doesn't mean it sits better in someone's mix. It depends on how it sounds in the context of that piece of music. Maybe it does all sorts of tricks but just doesn't have the same lushness or silk to it. Then what? You use what sounds right (can also be the other way around... maybe you need something more aggressive or other qualities that another sound or VI has). That's because the tonal character is unique to each sample and if it was musical and remains musical then... it's still useful and to me doesn't get the label - especially the negative connotations of it (implying that it's no longer viable today).

I guess it depends on one's perspective. If they are talking about what musical results (and of course a lot depends on HOW it is used because one can take even the most current cutting edge soft synth and make it sound dated just by what is played... how about some 80's House for example?).

I am not saying one couldn't pull out plenty of examples of a sound that is just weak. Maybe it was never strong in the first place. But then again one man's trash is another man's gold. I've never personally cared for keyboard brass samples. To me they ALL sound dated and I'd hire a brass section if I wanted brass on my song. But other people are glad it's there. These are workstations so they're not fad chasers. You've got the good the bad and the ugly in there depending on your tastes. But when you want to go for some lush symphonic pad or a gritty vintage sound or some lofi drum or percussion thing SampleTank just comes through even on the most modern productions. If you don't think so then you're missing it. But plenty of other people are not missing it. I see it all the time. SampleTank-range products get used a lot.

But to each his own. I think sometimes how we look at something makes it that way to us. I look at SampleTank as an open slate to quickly create what I am hearing in my head. I need a sound that will crunch in this section. So probably faster than anything else I've got I can call up a sound that is close and then mess with it until it does that thing I need. But if I was someone who thought of SampleTank or its sounds as out-dated then I probably wouldn't be able to get too much out of it. Too much preconceived bias working against it. Instead of finding the magic it can do within a track which is what I think the usefulness of a product should be based on... because to me that's the most important thing.

[Squids]

Dave, would you consider the Korg M1 and Roland D-50 as outdated?

rsp

Yep I would. But, the JV2080 less so and the XV5080 even less and the Fantom which has a lot of the sounds still from the JV series carried forward (and some of the sounds in the latest Korg go back to earlier Korgs as well) less so. What starts to happen is that the samples are better and not as limited plus you've got improved DSP possibilities. So it remains useful as an all around "workstation" type product. There haven't been that many changes to workstations in the last 5-10 years. Even the inclusion of physical modeling and other synthesis types hasn't made that much of a dent in the sound people end up using... which are usually sample-based and relying on good DSP.

One of the interesting things about SampleTank 2.5 is that even today, despite the fact that this has been around for years, there still aren't any sample workstation type software products that have better effects. Sure you can use better plug-in effects outside but I mean integrated with the sound like hardware keyboard workstations. I'm not saying I can't imagine SampleTank's effects being better. I've got my huge request list I've been carrying around with me of changes I'd like to see there. But I am amazed at how many other samplers still don't even have built-in effects at all or if they do they're not always as musical as some of the ones in SampleTank. Once you like the sound of a certain combination of synthesis/sample and effect it can become timeless... just like my vintage hardware keyboards and vintage stomp effects. They're never outdated to me even though they're old and far more complex or "advanced" instruments and effects have come along since.

[zvenx]

One thing with you is that you are always very passionate.
I commend you for that. We will passionately agree to disagree

rsp
take care, will look out for ST3....but unless it is the best product IK has ever done by far, for me that ship has sailed.... nexus 2, omnisphere, so many kontakt libraries, halionsonic, even hypersonic have way surpassed st 2.5 for me and I can't possibly imagine ST3 significantly changing that equation.

rsp

[Squids]

One thing with you is that you are always very passionate.
I commend you for that. We will passionately agree to disagree

rsp
take care, will look out for ST3....but unless it is the best product IK has ever done by far, for me that ship has sailed.... nexus 2, omnisphere, so many kontakt libraries, halionsonic, even hypersonic have way surpassed st 2.5 for me and I can't possibly imagine ST3 significantly changing that equation.

rsp

If you can't possibly imagine it then it probably won't be (for you)! If everything else covers your musical needs then I guess it's inconsequential for you anyway. (Although if you're in this thread there must be a part of you that IS curious if maybe ST3 will be an item on your list). Personally Hypersonic is the last on my list to touch. (In fact I've never felt the need to use it at all). Omnisphere and my Kontakt Komplete on the other hand are tasty options for me which I'll sometimes use. But most of the time I either just go for the real instrument if possible (mic a piano, a drum kit, grab a Wurly) or I grab SampleTank with all the SR sounds as a starting place. If I need something more elaborate or I want a change in inspiration or it's something that just calls for a specific VI or library I know will help me (like say Omnisphere if I am scoring something that needs some instant ambience... even though I can do wonders with SS2 in that area as well) then I go grab it. That's what has worked for me for years and it continues to. I'm in the midst of co-producing an album right now and SampleTank played its part... was kind to me as well considering studio time was expensive! (That's where speed to getting results matters that much more!)

I think everyone has their preferences. If you like SampleTank and get what it's good for now then you're just going to love SampleTank 3. If you don't then probably you won't! This would not be the thread to be in unless you just wanted to bash SampleTank a little for sport. I know some people do enjoy that. But the reason I go to the lengths I do, besides because I am passionate about what I am saying, is because there are musicians who get influenced by reading what we ALL have to say. These contexts and perspectives matter to some people. One person might have written it off and may fire it up again with a different approach and realize what I'm talking about makes sense. Someone else might fire up Hypersonic and think WOW THIS IS THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD!!!! (doubtful... talk about dated!!!! haha jk!!!)

[zvenx]

Hmmm, actually I think hypersonic is one of the best out there, and I prefer it to halionsonic, and actually for me it is the ultimate software workstation....omnisphere of course sounds better, works better, etc, but doesn't have the bread and butter sounds, whilst nexus well is by design over the top which doesn't work for everything.....but different strokes for different folks....yes I am curious, but I will admit I also do come for the 'spin'....

rsp

[Squids]

It's not as much of a spin as you might think. I admit where it falls short but give it just praise where it has time and time again proven to shine for myself and many musicians. Also, for what it's worth (not much but might as well say) it's ironic that you mention that one in particular. SampleTank gets used a lot more on professional recordings than Hypersonic. I can't recall any time other than some scattered posts on KVR years ago where anyone said they used it. Not that this means it's bad... and sure to each his own anyway. Omnisphere is great for what it does but it is not meant to be an all around workstation so it's not apples with apples if you were to compare. I think Hypersonic is maybe the closest comparison (not familiar with Nexus and again I haven't heard of anyone using it apart from on KVR). But the expandability of Hypersonic vs. SampleTank is nowhere near on par, the synth engines (Hyper doesn't have anything like PSTS or Stretch) and again the effects... the thing I like about IK is that the analog gear modeling is a forte. That's not the case for Steinberg or the specific makers of Hypersonic. So the built-in effects are a huge leap in SampleTank over Hypersonic. If that wasn't big enough of a gap SampleTank 3 will leave it in the dust in that area. As for the samples... total toss up. Sound per sound I am sure some are better on either side. There are duds and gems in both I am sure.

Ironically the whole Hypersonic vs. SampleTank or Sonik Synth debate itself is dated! I remember doing that yearrrrrrs ago. I am surprised to hear anyone even bring that up. I'd more expect people to compare to Kontakt-based plug-ins which are really powerful or something like Ivory. But in comparison to that SampleTank still has its place. Maybe comes down to what you're working on, the speed at which you need to work and the character of the sound because that is always going to be different from sample to sample and sampler to sampler. Sometimes I'll go to SampleTank to mock up a track because it's fast and then later replace a piano part with either a more elaborate sampled piano or a real piano. It's a great scratch pad tool especially if you have all of the Sonic Reality libraries on hand to grab so fast. Then often times you hear the sound in the mix of things and it ends up making it to the final. Other times it is a place holder and you replace it. That's how I often use it. That or like clay in a situation where I need to come up with a sound fast. I know it so well I know what I can get out of it.

[zvenx]

I am out.. good luck with the product.
Have a good night....
rsp

[Squids]

Good night! Thanks. You can wish me luck SELLING the product on esoundz but it's not our product. We'll support it with great sounds though. I'll use it as a musician as well.

Peace.

[olepro]

Some areas on the Sampletank gui is way too small.
For some things you need a crosshair around the mouse pointer to hit the right place in that gui.
And i stand by that statement no matter how many words squids use to defend it (you must be lightening fast on that computer keyboard !!)

[moonwalker2]

Wow squids, very informative and interesting opinions.

Dated was maybe a bad word of choice, I agree with you squids that ST has it's own character, just like a moog synth sounds like a moog and a virus sounds like a virus. But scrolling through the sounds in ST you kinda get the feel of the sounds being very late 90's. talking about those techno and trance tracks that were so popular back then (uuughh, hate those haha). But of course there are some golden eggs in there as well.... won't name my favorites tho

But you don't think any other sampler has better effects? have you ever looked at Kontakts 5 FX section? Or even Structure?! (Since you are a PT user) - Structure has some very nice and great sounding FX, and so does kontakt.

do you experience long loading time on startup? I have maybe 10 different collections of sounds in sampletank (Sonik Synth, SampleMoog, SR libraries etc) and when i load sampletank as a plug-in in pro tools 8.05 it takes sooooooo long. Is it just me? I figuered you Squids should have the longest loading times ever considering your large collection of libraries SR offers! But I have to admit, some of them are worth the wait!

Also, talking about speed with ST - How do you quickly find the sounds you want with that browser? Am I missing some tricks? If you don't really know what ypu are looking for and turn for sampletank it might take a while... both considering the startup loading time and the very tedious browsing system. ST would not be my choice if i was on a deadline and didn't know where to find the perfect sound in ST.

Thank you squids for answering with such passion and so much good information, gives me hope about ST!

Btw, i'm one of those who really really like brass samples, and in fact, especially the ones in ST. they have a raw edge to them, which don't come by to often. I hope more of those in the new ST3! Man, I would get so funky!