Sampletank 3?

[zedd]

do you experience long loading time on startup? I have maybe 10 different collections of sounds in sampletank (Sonik Synth, SampleMoog, SR libraries etc) and when i load sampletank as a plug-in in pro tools 8.05 it takes sooooooo long. Is it just me? I figuered you Squids should have the longest loading times ever considering your large collection of libraries SR offers! But I have to admit, some of them are worth the wait!

Moonwalker2, you need to go into SampleTank preferences (the PREF button on the GUI) and select OFF where it says "Relist on startup". It sounds like your whole library is being analysed every time you use ST. That is not necessary. If you uncheck the box, then ST will just load quickly based on the instruments as they were that last time they were analysed.

When you save a preset the first time in a session, it also takes a long time because ST has to relist the library in order to add your new presets to the database. But it is faster after the first preset save, and on the days when you are not saving any ST presets, you don't have to do any waiting at all.

...it is 64 bit if that's a concern for you. As I said, it's not for me. At least not until ProTools finally goes 64 bit.

I can't believe ProTools is not yet 64 bit. I would suspect that they have not hustled on this because the customers that they make the most money from are those with expensive hardware systems. For the majority of real-world musicians who are running a home studio, that is not an affordable option, and 32-bit limitations have become a real issue.

Even on this very evening I had to delete a whole bunch of tracks from a project just so that I could edit the drums with all the sluggishness, caused by my 32-bit DAW over-extended with a bunch of different VIs.

After 3 years working with ProTools, I would never go back to it. It was painful every single day.

Getting back to the question of "out-dated"... one could argue that both ways. In terms of the specs like not being 64 bit yet sure. Although since ProTools 10 isn't either I don't know if "out-dated" would be a word anyone would describe that.

I use SampleTank in EVERY project. I have default piano and bass set up in my template so that I can immediately start working and know exactly where to find those sounds.

I still find many of the SampleTank/Sonic Reality sounds to have more charm than a lot of competitor products out there that have much more detail and are more resource hungry. Why should I struggle with a huge piano, when a tiny SampleTank piano sounds much closer to the vibe I am looking for.

Indeed SampleTank has emulated a lot of vintage effects and some really cool vibe instruments. I want to continue using it in every project, and hope that it doesn't change too much.

But the 64-bit thing for me is a real issue. Next month my DAW (which is Digital Performer) will be released in 64-bit, and I do fear that SampleTank will be the single VI that will undermine the 64-bit efficiency and keep my projects sluggish and difficult to work with.

If I am to keep SampleTank in all my projects, I will need this addressed quickly.

I am 100% FOR SampleTank being updated as soon as possible so I'm with you guys but I would hate for anyone to think that SampleTank 2.5 is obsolete. Only if in your system you can't use it. But otherwise it's a viable instrument useful for a lot of things that have not gone out of style.

I fully agree. It is anything but obsolete, as long as it continues to work...

Are Tron instruments from the 1960s obsolete? Absolutely not. They still have their place and their classic vibe which is suitable for some things. There are plenty of ST sounds that will continue to be useful even many decades from now.

It surprises me that some people are unable to appreciate the wealth of cool sounds and FX that are in there.

But to each his own. I think sometimes how we look at something makes it that way to us. I look at SampleTank as an open slate to quickly create what I am hearing in my head. I need a sound that will crunch in this section. So probably faster than anything else I've got I can call up a sound that is close and then mess with it until it does that thing I need.

Exactly right. Loading up a more detailed instrument in Kontakt or PLAY is much more of a pain in the arse, when you are still trying to figure out what you are looking for. I encounter memory issues all the time because instrument samples are not purged properly, and would prefer to be able just load what I am looking for within ST. It is so much easier.

Then you can swap out the sound later when you have figured out the song and know what the instrument limitations are.

SampleTank Rules! And IK has done some spectacular things over the years. I have a feeling that this new version is going to continue to be a very desirable and pleasing alternative to other VI workstations on the market.

[moonwalker2]

Zedd - A BIG THANK YOU. From now on, you will be known as SuperZedd. I've used ST for about 5 years and never knew about this. Again, thank you, now i'll be off playing with sampletank without waiting!

[zedd]

Zedd - A BIG THANK YOU. From now on, you will be known as SuperZedd. I've used ST for about 5 years and never knew about this. Again, thank you, now i'll be off playing with sampletank without waiting!

So glad to be able to help!

I struggled with that very issue for a couple of years, a while back. It was a great pleasure to get to the bottom of it and do away with the long load times.

[jsp1979]

If you want faster browsing with ST2.5, then don't forget to use Asseca's mGUI.

http://asseca.com/wiki/MGUI/SampleTank25GUI

It allows you to use the mouse scroll wheel for finding sounds in the browser and adjusting parameters. It's fantastic!

[zvenx]

....
I use SampleTank in EVERY project. I have default piano and bass set up in my template so that I can immediately start working and know exactly where to find those sounds.

I still find many of the SampleTank/Sonic Reality sounds to have more charm than a lot of competitor products out there that have much more detail and are more resource hungry. Why should I struggle with a huge piano, when a tiny SampleTank piano sounds much closer to the vibe I am looking for.

........

Hi, I am curious to know what other products do you have license for? What are the choices in your arsenal that you choose ST in EVERY project.

thanks
rsp

[moonwalker2]

wow, how come i've never heard of useful tips like these? What more am I missing?! big thank you jsp1979!

[zedd]

Hi, I am curious to know what other products do you have license for? What are the choices in your arsenal that you choose ST in EVERY project.

I use it in every project because of the small size of the instruments and the ability to quickly load things. I have a piano and a bass pre-loaded into SampleTank in my project template.

But yes, I have access to a lot of other great VIs and libraries, including Kontakt, PLAY, Ivory, UVI Workstation and Sonivox (with numerous libraries for each of these products and a tonne of third party instruments, especially for Kontakt, including stuff like The Trumpet and the Trombone, and much more.)

There is no question that I have collected some terrific stuff over the years. I won't argue that each of those other VIs has more detailed instruments than those in SampleTank, and there is no question that those libraries have some superior sounding instruments. But there is also no question that each of those other VIs is more awkward to use and slows me down, whereas SampleTank serves me quickly and efficiently. If I think of trying something, I can have it loaded up and be experimenting with it in seconds using SampleTank. It is more complicated with other VIs and I have to start worrying about memory and resources when I experiment with them.

For some instruments--pianos for example--I usually stick with my tiny SampleTank pianos, because they actually have more character and charm than some of the huge pianos in my other libraries. No matter how detailed an instrument is, if it does not have the kind of tone you are looking for, it isn't gonna do what you need it to do.

Do I hope for some more detailed instruments in ST3? Yes, for sure.

Will I continue using ST instruments that are 10 years old? Yes, of course, when it is what I need.

[zvenx]

thanks for the response....

rsp

[Squids]

Wow squids, very informative and interesting opinions.

Dated was maybe a bad word of choice, I agree with you squids that ST has it's own character, just like a moog synth sounds like a moog and a virus sounds like a virus. But scrolling through the sounds in ST you kinda get the feel of the sounds being very late 90's. talking about those techno and trance tracks that were so popular back then (uuughh, hate those haha). But of course there are some golden eggs in there as well.... won't name my favorites tho

But you don't think any other sampler has better effects? have you ever looked at Kontakts 5 FX section? Or even Structure?! (Since you are a PT user) - Structure has some very nice and great sounding FX, and so does kontakt.

do you experience long loading time on startup? I have maybe 10 different collections of sounds in sampletank (Sonik Synth, SampleMoog, SR libraries etc) and when i load sampletank as a plug-in in pro tools 8.05 it takes sooooooo long. Is it just me? I figuered you Squids should have the longest loading times ever considering your large collection of libraries SR offers! But I have to admit, some of them are worth the wait!

Also, talking about speed with ST - How do you quickly find the sounds you want with that browser? Am I missing some tricks? If you don't really know what ypu are looking for and turn for sampletank it might take a while... both considering the startup loading time and the very tedious browsing system. ST would not be my choice if i was on a deadline and didn't know where to find the perfect sound in ST.

Thank you squids for answering with such passion and so much good information, gives me hope about ST!

Btw, i'm one of those who really really like brass samples, and in fact, especially the ones in ST. they have a raw edge to them, which don't come by to often. I hope more of those in the new ST3! Man, I would get so funky!

If you go into preferences in the gui and select it NOT to do a relist upon start up then it will instantiate faster. Yes the more sounds you have it browsing to the longer it takes and I have more than anyone I'm sure. But I just instantiate it while I'm doing something else and then once it's there it is really fast to load because the sounds are designed for ram-based instead of massive instruments that take longer. I like those too but not for every sound. I described in detail how I like to mock things up or scratch pad stuff sometimes before either going to a more detailed sampled instrument or live instrument. But that's just how I use it. I also like to use it to mold sounds because I can get fast results.

I haven't used Structure ironically as I do have it and I do use ProTools. I'm thinking about using Logic more though and I am strongly considering porting over the best Sonic Reality sounds to EXS24. I'd still use SampleTank in logic when I want to "clay shape" with the on board sound design tools and processing because I like it. But, at some point I'll take a deeper look at Structure just to see. If there was a huge demand for sounds in Structure at SR I probably would have dug into it more but we rarely hear about it.

But Kontakt... I love it and it has tons of features I really like. I respect it and find it to be many things in one. I've never been crazy about the built-in effects though. I like things like the built-in convolution (even though there are perhaps better convolution reverbs as plug-ins but it's cool to have that in there) and there are some interesting effects for sound design but some of the studio effects like compression are not what I personally like (and that's why we use it sparingly when we do sounds for Kontakt). When we do sound design we do it in Kontakt 4 though to be upward compatible. That's for SR. For me personally I use certain samplers with effects outside of the plug-in. Something like say Kontakt with our multi-track drum kits and grooves from Neil Peart or Drum Masters or EpiK DrumS or Ocean Way Drums I'd just use with my IK T-RackS, UAD, Waves API, EMI and other plug-ins. At that point I'm most likely going that route. But that's not to say I couldn't load up say one of our Kapsules and use the on board effects in a similar way I do with ST. I would if I had to of if there was something specific in Kontakt I wanted to use with it but since I have ST right there and I know certain things I can quickly do I often grab that.

So it gets back to workflow and how you use your tools for different purposes. For me drum kits and orchestral instruments vary in samples more than say acoustic and electric pianos or synth or sound design parts. It all depends on the music project I'm working on. Plus, like many musicians who are more concerned with getting the work done, I can be lazy. So it's not always about picking the absolute best thing and auditioning everything but it's about getting it done with what you know well. Sometimes it is. Other times you can explore more and try different things. Can also depend on the budget and if you're paying for studio time or doing it for fun on your own time in your home.

[Squids]

Zedd - A BIG THANK YOU. From now on, you will be known as SuperZedd. I've used ST for about 5 years and never knew about this. Again, thank you, now i'll be off playing with sampletank without waiting!

Right said Zedd. He beat me to it. Now any time you save a patch though for the first time it WILL do a relist so you get the spinning beach ball then (if you're on Mac anyway). But that's for the database to be able to find the sounds. You can also use the built-in search function as well. But what I forgot to mention and I think this is important is to get to know your library. All of the sounds done for SampleTank (most of which were done by my company Sonic Reality) are organized into folders of instrument groups. Within that you can mess around and get to know what you've got. If you need more of a specific thing you can go and pick up SampleTank expansion libraries from www.esoundz.com (at an extra 20% off! Aha!!!! Squids the Salesman is back!!!!! muahahaha.... jk... but seriously, it's not a bad time to pick some up while we're having a site-wide sale like that).

Anyway I really love what Zedd said. Some great points. We often think about what we're going to use as the final. But music making is a process and certain tools get you there faster and then in different stages you can bring in other tools that are perhaps more detailed. Other times you can start with the more detailed instrument for inspiration. No rules. All depends on the music you're working on and where you want to start. But having a workhorse like SampleTank around filled with a diverse range of expanded sounds is a good place for a lot of people. Build and replace when necessary.

I was talking recently with a producer named Nick Davis who just did a classical album with Tony Banks of Genesis. He used Miroslav Philharmonik to mock up ideas before going to the real orchestra to record. Sure he could have gotten more realism if he figured out all the cool things you can do with Vienna Symphony stuff. But at that point he's just going to use the real thing! So it was faster for him plus he knows the sounds well because he bought the original $4,000 library when it came out.

I did some work with Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree on his last album and while at certain points he had access to Mellotrons he used SampleTron because it had more sounds ready to go and he could experiment. It's also nice to have the built-in effects to grit something up or start with a familiar sound and twist it.

Going back to orchestral sounds, one thing I like to do is mock up my string parts with Miroslav sounds in SampleTank and then add real string players on top of it layered. That's a great way to get a realistic orchestral thing happening on a tight budget. So layering, replacing and sometimes just using it as is... these are where it comes in handy for me. I'll use any number of other virtual instruments anytime I feel the need or desire. I've got quite a few! But I won't be without my SampleTank, trusty ol' pal.

That said... for my home studio I am really thinking about going 64 bit and host based. We actually just recently sold our PT HD System and are preparing to get the HDX in the studio because that's what studios do. But for me personally it's a toss up. However I am Mac-based and plan to stay there.

Anyway, we'll see. If it gets to the point where I can share more I will. This isn't an IK forum it's a Sonic Reality forum but typically we've had a lot of insider stuff here when a new product like this is being released so hang around and you never know. Maybe I'll have something good for you guys.

[soulata]

Now where's that SampleTank3 then?



k

[Xenobt]

Now that's how to get back on track!

Squids, are you working with a beta copy? I'm interested to know if the ST3 engine has been redesigned, or will be the same.

I know that ST has a "tone" all it's own, and when used in an ensemble for specific things, it sits great. It does have a more colored, upper-mids-pushed sound, which works especially well on strings, pianos, electric guitars and basses. And the onboard effects for all of those are outstanding.

But on things that need a more open, punchy sound, I find the NI and UVI engines are MUCH cleaner and more transparent. Acoustic guitars, breathy synth pads and drums come forward naturally in the mix, with a more produced, extended top and bottom.

I a/b'ed a drum kit (Alta Kit GM, NICE!) from the Sampletank Acoustic Drums 2 library with the same kit from the Studio Drums Kapsule for Infinite Player/Kontakt and the difference was striking! (slight pun intended )

The cymbals, snare top and the depth and air around the kick were all MUCH improved in Kontakt, without any real difference in CPU hit. So I'm tending to pick and choose my sound engines much like any other eq or compressor when possible.

But for things I don't have in Infinite Player, I learned a cool trick from Brian at IK, the Tone Control in the ST effects section! Used on individual channels or just once on the Master effects section, it really beefs up Sampletank's drums and basses, and with a little judicious tone sculpting, can give ST a MUCH better run for its money against some of the other workstations.

The Gain is set a little high when you instantiate it, but by dropping it down to 1.5 or so, and it just opens things up and gives a more polished, mastered sound to the whole VI. If you haven't tried it, TRY IT!

I'm hoping that ST3 will address the slightly cloudy, middy eq signature so things like the Tone Control won't be necessary, while keeping all those very quick, highly usable effects!

KVR/eSoundz: Xenobt

[moonwalker2]

Xenobot: Just tried the tonecontrol with some drums I hade in a dirty south pack from SR (which i wrote about being to thin in my taste etc).

It made wonders to the drums, I can't believe i've never used it before. Timbaland, watch out, imma make a hit with these superbanging dirtysouth drums!

And thanks to squids for producing them, i just needed the right knowledge on how to mix them the way i like it!

[zedd]

...I learned a cool trick from Brian at IK, the Tone Control in the ST effects section! Used on individual channels or just once on the Master effects section, it really beefs up Sampletank's drums and basses, and with a little judicious tone sculpting, can give ST a MUCH better run for its money against some of the other workstations.

The Gain is set a little high when you instantiate it, but by dropping it down to 1.5 or so, and it just opens things up and gives a more polished, mastered sound to the whole VI. If you haven't tried it, TRY IT!

I just tried it, and I can totally hear what you are talking about.

A VERY GOOD TIP. They have something like that built into UVI PlugSoundPro, and I liked it. It never occurred to me that the ToneControl on the Master FX in SampleTank would achieve the same result.

Very cool! I'm gonna be experimenting with this a lot in days to come with different projects. Thanks.

-----------

The ToneControl already comes tweeked with settings (Tube 1, Low=7, Mid=9.9, High=4.4, Presence=0, and Level=3.8 ). Aside from turning the level down to 2.3 to equalize the activated/bypassed volume, do you have any other suggestions for tweeking the ToneControl? Do you have a Tube preference or like to change the knob settings, or do you normally use the default. Just curious.

[Xenobt]

You're welcome, all!

It really changed my whole sound in ST, and opens up big pads, dark pianos and Miro strings and brass nicely too.

Here's some stuff from a thread last fall about bigger drums in ST (quoting myself, as I'm wont to do! ).

"My favorite setting for the Tone Control:

Model: Tube 3 - Low: 5-7 - Mid: 6 - High: 2.8 - Presence: 0 - Level: 1.6

It's more of a subtle eq shift with a little warm saturation, the other 4 tubes have a bit more color to my ear. And it seems the Gain also reacts with with the tube emulation effect, so different levels don't just change volume, but tone too. So to keep it even less tubey, I run it a little lower than unity and make it up with midi volume in my DAW.

And ObiK posted this one:

"Model: Tube 1, - Low: 7-8 - Mid: 4-6 - High: 2-3 - Presence: 2 - Level: 2. Usually followed by a limiter or compressor to get that workstation sound and to handle any overs or digital clipping during the creative phases."

You can also use it on the Master effects slot, since there's not a whole lot it DOESN'T sound good on!"

It's also cool on individual parts, just to give some more variation to tones inside the workstation.

KVR/esoundz: Xenobt