KVR Audio

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:21 am

Hello my friends

Does anybody knows it this exist?
I want to be able to evaluate my melody writing skills.

Thank you

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:58 am

That's the thing about melody and music. It's really not an equation There are melodic lines that don't fit into tidy boxes.

I'll give you an example. Lets say you are exploring "Backstepping"
Backstepping is when you take a motif, play it, then go back one note and repeate the sequence. You'll find it in jazz standards such as the chorus to take 5, All of me (though that one intermingles back stepping) Fly me to the moon as well as tons of bossa nova tunes.
You play a melody. for the same of arguement it's decending CBAG, Then you start on a note close to but not the original one. and you follow the sequence out.
So your first phrase is CBAG your second phrase could be BAGF or DCBA
If you countinue that pattern/sequence it will sound like a pattern/sequence and less human. But,, it will register as "logical" to any program. And if you decide that you want a melody with alternating motif's where by motive 1 and 3 are similar and motif's 2 and 4 are similar but have different properties then it's going to be hard for the program to figure out you are working with alternating couplets. With jazz and to a lesser extent pop/rock there are some "reach" notes that may not fullfil the key structure and thus give the piece a bit of tension. As well there are plenty of passing and neighboring tones

There are also concepts that the program might be percieved incorrectly.
Lets say you end one section,,, a verse with a particular phrase. A nice idea is to infuse a slight character change not necessarily a change to the order of the notes but to they rhythmic feel and then use that as the first motiv of your b section or chorus. That is a perfectly valid vehicle. The "Cap" phrase of one section becomes the imputiss of the next with a slightly modified expression.
Well a computer would prolly read that as.. you missed your cue and your meter.

Nystul · Post by **Nystul** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:41 am

Usually if we hear a "wrong" note, it is because of some inappropriate dissonance. But in another musical context, that dissonance might sound just fine.

Also sometimes when we expand our musical horizons what used to sound "wrong" might not anymore. The first time I heard a Bartok piece, I thought it was a ridiculous sound experiment gone wrong. But he has grown on me. So I don't think any objective criteria can really be applied to this.

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:37 pm

I understand what you're saying but lets look at first species counterpoint.
There are several rules to be applied in counterpoint writing and the possible results are also more than one (like in melodies).
In spite of this, there are several applications and java applets that analyse your work against those rules and tell you if any of them is being broken.

As far as I understood, melody writing is also governed by a set of rules.
My initial question in this post was in the assumption of "if it exists to caounterpoint, why not to melody writing?".

Obviously these counterpoint apps are not 100% accurate but they can provide you a good guidance.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:19 pm

Unfortunately I really can't help there. The classical approach and validation is lost on me.

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:20 pm

Unfortunately I really can't help there.

I noticed that.

Thanks anyway.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:07 pm

rbarata wrote: "if it exists to caounterpoint, why not to melody writing?".

Species Counterpoint is a set of exercises designed to equip you with the basic tools of (certain types of) composition. It is a mechanical process rather like learning how to spell. - Sure, you can do lots of spelling tests, but you're not actually writing prose.

Melody writing (like literature) is an art;, a subjective thing that varies enormously between different styles of music from different periods in different areas of the world. You can't develop a computer programme to tell you how to write a good melody anymore than you can get a computer programme to write an interesting novel, or paint an interesting picture.

It is sort of true that there are various guidelines to writing melodies, at least, things you usually start with if studying music at school. It's important to remember though that they are just guidelines, and not "rules". Rather like riding a bike with stabilisers on; at some point, you're gonna want to take them off!

For example. If I was teaching someone to write a good melody (who hasn't had much experience before) I would start by giving guidelines such as (off the top of my head):

- Stick to the notes of the major scale
- Divide your melody into phrases
- Think of the first as a question, the second as an answer
- The final phrase should end on the 1st note of the scale
- Mostly move by step with occasional small leaps
- After a big leap, follow by moving by step in the opposite direction

I would look at simple melodies for examples (nursery rhymes are great). You would then need to concentrate on developing your ideas, being aware of implied harmony, using repetition, sequence, inversion etc.

After a while though (when you have mastered the basics), almost all of that goes out the window and you can experiment and do pretty much what you like! - Ultimately, there are no rules!

As I said to you before, I would forget about the computer for now. Remember; none of the great masters used one to compose. Read books, study models, but above all - get a teacher and listen to their advice. A real person can guide you infinitely better than any computer will ever be able to do.

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:51 pm

JumpingJackFlash wrote:
Species Counterpoint is a set of exercises designed to equip you with the basic tools of (certain types of) composition.

Absolutely disagree with this statement. There are elements to be learned here which are the sine qua non of writing for any pitched instrument(s) or voice(s).

JJF sometimes comes off like some voice of authority, but don't let it go without realizing there is more than one way of looking at this stuff.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:07 pm

Ogg Vorbis wrote:There are elements to be learned here which are the sine qua non of writing for any pitched instrument(s) or voice(s).

I think you may have misunderstood. I entirely agree that Species Counterpoint is useful, and there is certainly a lot to be learned from it. My point was that First Species Counterpoint is not really writing "real" music. The latter species, arguably could be considered such, but it's by no means the be-all and end-all of composition. (You are of course free to disagree though).

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:30 pm

JumpingJackFlash wrote:
Ogg Vorbis wrote:There are elements to be learned here which are the sine qua non of writing for any pitched instrument(s) or voice(s).
I think you may have misunderstood. I entirely agree that Species Counterpoint is useful, and there is certainly a lot to be learned from it. My point was that First Species Counterpoint is not really writing "real" music. The latter species, arguably could be considered such, but it's by no means the be-all and end-all of composition. (You are of course free to disagree though).

I must have misunderstood...I agree that the purpose of species counterpoint is to break things down into isolated situations and textures. And I agree that it isn't music. But I happen to have noticed that its benefits extend far beyond 16th century liturgical music.

Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying!

coquillo · Post by **coquillo** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:41 am

Have you looked at Musical Palette?

http://www.palette-mct.com/index.html

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:11 am

For example. If I was teaching someone to write a good melody (who hasn't had much experience before) I would start by giving guidelines such as (off the top of my head):

- Stick to the notes of the major scale
- Divide your melody into phrases
- Think of the first as a question, the second as an answer
- The final phrase should end on the 1st note of the scale
- Mostly move by step with occasional small leaps
- After a big leap, follow by moving by step in the opposite direction

I started now following a book called "Exercises in elementar counterpoint", by Percy Goetschius.
In there, there are a several "rules" governing melody writing, being those you've posted just the general guidelines.
May I sugest you to download it from this link, for a quick view? These are free domain books due to their age (beginning of the XX century) so no problem in downloading them.

I can also follow his other book, as a complement to the first, called "Exercises in melody-writing" that more or less follows the same line of though. Both have exercises which is great.
But, obviously, they don't have answers which makes you go back in your exercises and review them to find for hidden errors (which is also great).

Have you looked at Musical Palette?

Yes, I know this program but it doesn't do what I want. Thanks anyway.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:24 pm

rbarata wrote:I understand what you're saying but lets look at first species counterpoint.
There are several rules to be applied in counterpoint writing and the possible results are also more than one (like in melodies).
In spite of this, there are several applications and java applets that analyse your work against those rules and tell you if any of them is being broken.

As far as I understood, melody writing is also governed by a set of rules.
My initial question in this post was in the assumption of "if it exists to caounterpoint, why not to melody writing?".

Obviously these counterpoint apps are not 100% accurate but they can provide you a good guidance.

if you want your species counterpoint criticized you really should find a teacher with proper expertise in that; there will be context for the WHY of it. I'm not clear on the why of this for you at this point. Maths isn't music. machines can be made to follow procedures and come up with something that resembles music to the degree it fits patterns, but not invent. melody writing is a type of invention.

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:05 pm

rbarata wrote:Does anybody knows it this exist?
I want to be able to evaluate my melody writing skills.

You should have stated this was about the strict Counterpoint rules.
Anyway, a simple Google revealed just one candidate:
http://www.ars-nova.com/cp/

tradivoro · Post by **tradivoro** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:22 pm

You may want to check this out:

www.123writemelody.com

Although it doesn't deal with strict counterpoint, it's not a software, it will give you a chodal approach to writing melody.

Melody writing software with error checking