KVR Audio

zutzer · Post by **zutzer** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:12 pm

I've been checking out a lot of probability driven step sequencers, but haven't been able to find one with a "global probability control."

I'm not a drummer, and one of the most useful bits of advice a drummer has given me regarding drum programing is the idea that when I lay down a basic groove, it's a good idea to imagine the most stripped-down version and the busiest version of the pattern that could work in the song and use variations closer to the most stripped-down pattern in areas where I want to reduce energy in the drums, and the busiest when I want to increase the energy.

I have seen several step-sequencers/drum pattern machines that allow you to assign the probability that a hit will be made in a particular spot in the pattern, but not one that will allow you to change that probability on the fly.

I would like to be able to program a simple, thin drum pattern and then assign a number of additional hits that would occur randomly in large numbers during high-energy parts, but in small numbers (or not at all) during low energy parts.

This would be done by assigning a probability for each additional event, then using a global slider to increase or decrease the probability on all additional events proportionally and simultaneously.

I'm gonna try an example with the "4 to the Floor" pattern,with each _ representing a 16th note.

Thinnest: represents kick on 1,2,3,&4, snare on 2&4, and hi-hat on off beats.
Hi-Hat:[1]_ _ x _[2]_ _ x _[3]_ _ x _[4]_ _ x _
Snare::[1]_ _ _ _[2]x _ _ _[3]_ _ _ _[4]x _ _ _
Kick:::[1]x _ _ _[2]x _ _ _[3]x _ _ _[4]x _ _ _

Thickest: represents above with additional hits labelled "a"
Hi-Hat:[1]a a x _[2]a a x _[3]a a x _[4]a a x _
Snare::[1]_ _ _ _[2]x _ _ a[3]_ _ _ _[4]x _ _ a
Kick:::[1]x _ a _[2]x _ _ _[3]x _ _ a[4]x _ a _

Both of these patterns are examples of the same basic house beat, but one is minimal, one busy.

There are several sequencers where I could assign all the "x"s too 100% and the "a"s to say, 25%, and I would end up creating patterns that were on average 25% busier than the most basic pattern.

What I would like to do, is have a slider that would simultaneously add or subtract the probability of "a"s from 0 to 100% (say in 1% increments) while leaving the probability of "x"s at 100% no matter were the slider is located.

This would allow me to create an huge range of variations without altering the fundamental groove or accent pattern. So, for example, I could move the probability slider to "0" after a drop, then increase the probability of the additional beats in a way that makes sense with the build-up.

This kind of thing is basic to the way I write drum-parts and in some cases I do it so mechanically, I don't think doing it with a program would any less artistically satisfying and a hell of a lot easier.

If something like this already exists, and I've just missed it, let me know, and if you don't think it does and you have some idea of how this could be done, tell me about it and what direction I could take to make it happen.

I have no experience as a programmer, I have never used SynthEdit, Synthmaker, etc. but did just get Reaktor as part of Komplete 8, so I think that would be a good way for me to dive in. I have some ideas as to how the math of it would be implemented, but any advice would be helpful, and god knows if there is something out there like this already, stop me before I wade too far into what could be a brutal learning experience.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:20 pm

Hi zulzer, this forum is really about "do it yourself" and building. I think you might get more replies in the instrument forum so I will move it there leaving a shadow topic here so you know where it went. It's possible that this would also be good in the samples forum. If you feel you want it moved there you can ask another mod to move it or link to it yourself in the samples forum...once I move it from here I have no powers. Best wishes and I hope you get what you're looking for

RunBeerRun · Post by **RunBeerRun** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:40 am

Check out Xoxos' MIDI plugins, I used to use them for probability based drum sequencing. Circuit is made for drums, but the others can get weirder.

deleted · Post by **deleted** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:21 am

DELETED

UncleAge · Post by **UncleAge** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:32 am

zutzer wrote:...stop me before I wade too far into what could be a brutal learning experience.

Learning is a good thing. It can feel brutal if you hit a wall though. But more on topic... You mentioned Reaktor and that may be a good fit. You might also want to do a bit of searching around for projects done in:

MAX/MSP
http://cycling74.com/project/

or

Pd
http://puredata.info/

Sorry I can't be of more help...

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:03 am

Jamstix has something like this?

xoxos · Post by **xoxos** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:59 pm

yes. use mine.

anyway - there are a couple of elementary techniques to remember - layering and patch changes. if you can't get all the sequence you want out of one instance, use a second, slightly different patch, to handle the "busy" parts or use a modified patch and automate patch changes. changing patches generally affects parameterisation and i doubt it will reinitialise algorithm in anyone's product.

as far as i understood your intent, it could be done with a few patches in very basic apps.

Vaylos · Post by **Vaylos** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:08 am

Another sequencer/drum machine that is built around the probability concept, is RPS-1 which became free a few months ago. http://www.contralogic.com/vst-plugins/rps-1/ It allows controlling the probability via different parameters, and I'm finding it to be fairly flexible.

I've been playing around with that one a bit, and I'm liking it pretty well so far. I am also not a drummer, and I'm pretty horrible at making beats (except for really simple/basic stuff)

Layering can definitely help for creating more dynamic rhythms as far as busy vs. relaxed. But I like probability driven sequences in that they can help make individual layers a bit more organic feeling.

Having a couple tracks layered with RPS-1 and switching layers on/off could probably produce some good moving/dynamic parts. Or even using the midi data out from RPS-1 to trigger other stuff.

I also own Jamstix 3, and use that for acoustic sounding stuff, but also sometimes for electronic kits since you can load other drum VSTi's into jamstix (like ersdrums for instance). But it's not so much a probability sequencer as it is a fully featured drummer artificial intelligence.

Hope that helps open up another option worth looking at.

prolapse · Post by **prolapse** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:49 pm

Also check out stepbeater (it's free/ donation): http://users.frii.com/saffleck/stepbeater.html

I've tried a lot of different vsts for doing what you're talking about (but for making glitch/ breakcore super busy type stuff) and have found that between stepbeater and xoxo's there are more than enough options available (to at least get you up and running before you can really pinpoint what it is that you're 'missing').

pinki · Post by **pinki** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:09 pm

Archibald will do this with patch changes http://www.polyrythmic.org/en/archibald.php/
Great probability features for velocity, attack and on/off.

ImeaDan · Post by **ImeaDan** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:13 am

A drum sequencer interesting to discover GROOVE DRUMS (IMEA Studio).
Its ease of programming and its implementation of randomize functions that really help to create new grooves.

f.poce@tiscali.nl · Post by **f.poce@tiscali.nl** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:23 am

In this context, I have made a Max for Live / Standalone Step Sequencer & Drum Pattern box you may find interesting. Both tools have probability elements and the Pattern Drummer also a way to create alternate random patterns.

Check this out on this video's:

You can find them here:
http://fabriziopoce.com/download.html

Gr
Fabrizio // june74

mr.bungle · Post by **mr.bungle** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:44 am

This approach is pretty much what I did in my online acid house generator toy:

http://rinki.net/pekka/acid/ (it's Java applet)

It has some preset 16th note patterns with probabilities set for each step. The final result is then randomized.

highkoo · Post by **highkoo** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:42 pm

I use Erratic from DLM a lot-
http://www.delamancha.co.uk/erratic.htm

But, v1, with the old GUI.
I dont think it does what you want without using the host, but thought Id mention it because I always found the general GUI concept to be great for this kind of 'probability' drum sequencer;

IrionDaRonin · Post by **IrionDaRonin** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:20 pm

Try Contralogic Productions RPS-1. It is free.

I think it will work for you.

Good luck and have a nice day

Making a probability driven drum seq (with a twist) Help?