KVR Audio

xh3rv · Post by **xh3rv** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:50 am

Albert.VST wrote:
Wouldn't a VST4 (or 3.5) be possible to develop that includes inter-VST connections? A kind of connection matrix. To get this same functionality in other hosts?

I think the line from the demo video about RE being first-class objects in Reason sums up what the difference is. An single cycle of development with VST standards, or for any DAW, in isolation can't achieve that level of integration.

cytone · Post by **cytone** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:55 am

Thinking about this further Properllehead's said they will store the ReRack plugin for life but does the developer contract mean that they will have access to the source code. They have been instances of developers closing business or just abandoning products and disappearing so it would be an advantage if Propellerhead's can maintain the code base if they need to.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:04 am

Anosou wrote:While they might not be unstable, there is no sandboxing so if a plug-in is unstable it could bring down software.

Done in Reaper. Ages before you guys.

valhallasound · Post by **valhallasound** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:15 am

cytone wrote:Thinking about this further Properllehead's said they will store the ReRack plugin for life but does the developer contract mean that they will have access to the source code. They have been instances of developers closing business or just abandoning products and disappearing so it would be an advantage if Propellerhead's can maintain the code base if they need to.

No developer on earth would agree to that.

Sean Costello

braj · Post by **braj** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:16 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Anosou wrote:While they might not be unstable, there is no sandboxing so if a plug-in is unstable it could bring down software.
Done in Reaper. Ages before you guys.

I really think, from the viewpoint of creating a great product for the end user they should have allowed sandboxed VSTs, and let you host VSTs in a custom 'combinator' type shell, mapping whatever you liked using that shell's custom UI and only opening the native UI when/if you need it. Then it would be a native rack to maintain Reason's UI conventions but let the user have access to every plugin they already own. Of course it wasn't a decision based on the user's best interests, but what makes money for PH. Which I have to understand and accept, but I don't have to like. I would have bought Reason Essentials had they announced full VST compatibility along with a RE store to sell Reason only instruments, but even with my relatively small collection of VSTs it isn't a switch I'm willing to make. But then maybe it is none of my business anyhow.

fceramic · Post by **fceramic** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:26 am

@braj
Can't have everything in life! If you actually spent a few minutes going through the video presentation of RE you would understand why Propellerhead have done it their own way and why the RE format has multiple advantages.
And yes, businesses do try to make money, that's how it works.

braj · Post by **braj** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:30 am

fceramic wrote:@braj
Can't have everything in life! If you actually spent a few minutes going through the video presentation of RE you would understand why Propellerhead have done it their own way and why the RE format has multiple advantages.
And yes, businesses do try to make money, that's how it works.

So why not add a sandboxed VST wrapper that loads anything? How does that detract from the product, beyond limiting anyone from buying exclusively from them? I'm just saying, it is not in the end user's best interest. It is not a technical limitation.

xh3rv · Post by **xh3rv** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:59 am

braj wrote:It is not a technical limitation.

I don't think the right argument is whether or not Reason would completely break with VSTs, but more like Propellerheads want to avoid situations where code is broken, and they have no way of dealing with it. Which is a little different than the argument layed out from the source. This is a bit like Flash on the iPhone IMHO ([e] especially in that there's also a lot of other things bouncing around in terms of tech and design, as well)

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:05 am

If it was the open VST format,
Props would not get 30% from the VST vendors.

braj · Post by **braj** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:08 am

nix808 wrote:If it was the open VST format,
Props would not get 30% from the VST vendors.

Exactly. That is the whole story right there.

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:10 am

Well I think it's good news. It's an implementation of sorts for one of the things that people have complained about for ages, so I'm on board with this.

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:16 am

me too--
might update so.
I have 3&4,
the sequencer is too fiddly though IMO.
hmm, I do like the feel of it though,
as a whole package.
Love the rack paradigm--
like I say the dis-immediacy of the seq frustrates me though

braj · Post by **braj** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:39 am

Imagine if Props had made RE for Reason act as 'native' VSTs essentially, with their nice online store, once-stop shop, and allow any plugin to be used as a VST in any host, cross-platform on Win/Mac, including Reason's native plugs. Reason would instantly become the darling of every single DAW user, I would buy it in a heartbeat and use the plugins in my choice of DAW, and shop at their store exclusively out of the sheer convenience. They probably would get nearly every VST developer on board since they would become one defacto standard that would work anywhere, and they would still have compelling reasons for users to work within Reason. Imagine loading a Reason VST and selecting any patch from any VST based on some filtered search, but do it in Cubase, FL Studio, Reaper, or whatever. I think they are missing an incredibly great opportunity, like they are part-way there but are missing the most critical element out of stubbornness and misplaced self-interest. It would be the next step beyond Rewire and really give them the whole market to garner that 30%.

Maybe this is the plan though, call it something else besides VST, call it Rewire 2 maybe, but if Reason instruments could work as a plugin in other hosts I would be totally on board with the whole concept. Hosts are so user-specific to the preference of how different people work, having to use the old rewire is just a PITA for me, not exactly a elegant way of working from any host that I've seen.

xh3rv · Post by **xh3rv** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:48 am

nix808 wrote:If it was the open VST format,
Props would not get 30% from the VST vendors.

I'm kind of smitten overnight with RE and really don't have the whole story so I'm not taking this too seriously, but this is the internet

When Apple dumped Flash on iOS, my brother ( @ MicroSoft ) gave me crap about it (don't use anything MicroSoft except Netflix via SilverLight). MicroSoft dropped Flash last September IIRC.

We had friends at a Flash shop who thought dropping it on the iPhone made perfect sense, even though it didn't help them - the shop shut down early this year. Employees have adapted. One of the co-founders rebooted and is doing basically the same exact thing, just with a reasonably efficient tool-chain cross-platform. The iOS stuff has been good for him.

One of these guys just got out of tech, now owns a bar in Cambodia. I have a video of him winning the Midwest Region Air Sex Championship (sponsored by FleshLight™) which I was able to take, edit, and distribute on-site with an iPhone. There's no way I think that would ever be possible if Apple settled for Flash, even if it was technically feasible you just can't slow down the Air Sex Championships to get everything lined up without killing the mood. (e: I should note I came in 3rd place, also last place, literally to a homeless guy that walked in off the streets because my act was an ironic bit about social media being sort of an airy substitute for human contact, and I wouldn't show any skin. If only Siri had been out.)

The point is, platform integration matters - not all the time or for everyone, but enough that it's legitimate business. It's not yesterday's donuts repackaged, and that's part of where the 30% goes.

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:04 am

braj wrote:
nix808 wrote:If it was the open VST format,
Props would not get 30% from the VST vendors.
Exactly. That is the whole story right there.

Did you ever own a business?

Musikmesse 2012: Propellerhead to share "exciting news"