Musikmesse 2012: Propellerhead to share "exciting news"

[valhallasound]

^

I strongly agree with this. Reason has its advantages. Its sound design potential is great, and with the new devices it could open the door for some really special things; interactions between different devices in a complex combinator would be awesome. It's not like the VST/AU paradigm, this is slightly different.

Another example:

ValhallaShimmer is essentially a diffusor loop reverb, with a pitch shifter in its feedback loop. The routing necessary to make this work in VST would be difficult, and would require a very specific reverb architecture. Meanwhile, there are a bunch of reverbs that could be "shimmerized," but in order to do so, the pitch shifting has to be placed at that particular point.

A Re reverb (ReVerb - if anyone else takes that name, they are sneaky thieves and I hates them forever) could have special routing jacks at the back, that would act as a send and return for the feedback points of the reverb. You could put a pitch shifter in this send/return, and voila! Instant Shimmer. The pitch shifter could be the granular sort used in ValhallaShimmer, or a phase vocoder pitch shifter, or whatever generates the desired effects. For that matter, you could put anything in that feedback loop, and get some cool sounds. Or, put a noise gate in there, and get instant gated reverbs. You can't do this in VST.

Mind you, not all reverbs would work with this style of feedback loop. Most of the ValhallaRoom algorithms wouldn't work with sends and returns. The ValhallaShimmer algorithms would, and some upcoming work will work well with send/returns. Again, a good argument for creating specialized plugins for Reason. Not an argument in favor of the App Store, mind you.

Sean Costello

[CT]

To me, I'm not particularly interested in seeing VSTs ported over. Zebra, for example, I'm happy with as a VST. However, what would be interesting is if the individual modules in Zebra were ported individually. Imagine having an unlimited number of FMO modules that also have CV in/out. Unlimited comb filers. MSEG generators. A module for user defined waveforms. That sort of development would just be insane.

This is exactly what I am hoping for too. Over time, I would hope that the majority of RE's are either individual modules of a modular synth, or completely new plugins that are relevant to the way Reason functions, instead of just being straight ports of existing vst/au plugins. That imo would be very boring indeed. And silly too, for example, think of how silly a straight port of a fabfilter plugin UI would be in Reason.

In a year or two, I hope to see Reason evolve into one of the most powerful modular synthesis beasts available (among other things), if not the most. Anyone who's used a nord modular knows how, even though it is not nearly as powerful as something like Reaktor, it is just such an intuitive, creativity friendly and rewarding way to work. Ive said it many times and I'll say it again, the NMG2 remains my favorite synth to this day. And this has the potential to become so much more than that, while still being similar in some important ways.

RE is not vst/au, the similarity starts and ends at them being plugin formats, and I am really hoping that developers see it this way too, and make the most of how extensions can fit into the Reason workflow.

[Crackbaby]

Don't forget Übermod!

(But please continue weaving thoughtpatterns of the possibilities with Rack Extensions! Very interesting to read )

[headquest]

Ouch, you've obviously made up your mind about this already! All right, naturally I'll respect that and take your words above to imply that your decision is anchored in a much wider ideological context than just business perspectives.

Still I have to say: DAMN, it really hurts to hear that we're not going to see your excellent Valhalla plugins in the Reason rack. We'll have to continue using them on Reason DSP chains through ReWire then.

I think this is a response that underlines the point I made earlier in the thread - Propellerhead have been so aggressively negative about VSTs that there are going to be some VST developers who aren't so fast to forgive them for their attitude over the years.

Sure, some will shrug it off as unimportant, or maybe even agree about the shortcomings of VST, but others will not be so quick to want to do business with Propellerhead, especially as even now their public statements about VST in general are so sweeping, inaccurate and negative.

Perhaps in the minds of some at least, the relationship between Propellerhead and the rest of the audio software world needs to thaw somewhat - a bit like if North Korea asked to join the G8 summit

[headquest]

From my perspective the biggest addition to making an Re plugin is that the copy protection actually works doesn't it?

Depends how you look at it...

The crashes I mentioned before were due to Codemeter (which is also perhaps why Propellerhead support team were so clueless in providing the help I needed). Codemeter and eLicense were having driver conflicts.

I'm not the only one. A handful of users had problems of one sort or another with Codemeter (check their forum).

Maybe it works for developers. Not necessarily for the end-users though

[headquest]

I think that the Make-or-break with Re is going to be Kontakt players....

NN-XT is ten years old and few of the big professional sample libraries bother with it - many of the pro libraries are using the Kontakt Player as the front end.

Get Kontakt Player into Reason, and it will be a game-changer. Otherwise I think it will be a nice addition for Reason users, but not something that propels Reason so much into the broader pro market.

(Of course in terms of the core programme they would really need to add video support, MIDI out, audio editing, etc too.)

[eXode]

To me, I'm not particularly interested in seeing VSTs ported over. Zebra, for example, I'm happy with as a VST. However, what would be interesting is if the individual modules in Zebra were ported individually. Imagine having an unlimited number of FMO modules that also have CV in/out. Unlimited comb filers. MSEG generators. A module for user defined waveforms. That sort of development would just be insane.

This is a good idea for sure but not so practical when you consider Reason's current limitations. You can't run CV at full audio rate and all CV signals are monophonic atm (clarification: speaking of between devices in the Reason rack). So your idea, good as it is, wouldn't be very useful unless you are content with monophonic setups.

I and other Reason users with me have often pestered props with the option of getting both full rate CV and polyphonic CV. Perhaps this can become a reality if RE developers ask for it too.

I think that it's important to keep in mind what Magnus Lidström (Sonic Charge) wrote on CDM on the matter of Rack Extensions:

Naturally, because it is a new format we will initially see fairly straight ports of existing plug-ins that *fit* this format (plug-ins that don't fit simply can't be ported), but Propellerheads is staking out a route that will take us beyond ports. I would almost claim that they have taken measures to *prevent* porting (although sharing DSP-code between your VST/AU/etc and RE is still easy).

There are *very* strict limitations to what you can and are allowed to do GUI-wise and to some extent even how things look because RE uses full 3D-models and PH decides lighting etc.
Some developers may do this format as well as VST/AU, some will *only* do this format (trust me, using the RE SDK will be the quickest way for a new DSP-developer to create full featured cross-platform products). Of course a lot of existing devs won't care, ever. Just like you don't see every game manufacturers do Nintendo DS games or all OS X developers do iPad-development. (Coincidentally, the best DS games and iPad apps are never the simple ports.)

Details of the shop are still being worked out. Hopefully we can create discount-codes etc already from day 1. But I don't primarily expect VST/AU users to jump on this. This is a format created to let Reason users buy 3rd party stuff for their beloved rack. Reason users love their rack more than people love DAWs in general IMO and this is going to be a blessing for them and a business opportunity for us.

I'm also thinking around those lines. Initially we'll perhaps see more straightforward ports of existing products but as time moves on (hopefully) we'll see more Rack Extensions that utilize the format better and are perhaps a bit customized for the Reason rack paradigm.

[eXode]

The problem is that every existing commercial plugin developer already has distribution and copy protection taken care of, for far less than 30%. That's why they are commercial software developers, as opposed to freeware developers or talented 3rd party contractors - they've figured out how to monetize things for themselves.

Are you also getting someone that makes your plugin cross-platform for you and maintains your code base together with the aforementioned distribution and copy protection for less than 30%? I'm sorry, I personally don't think that the 30% cut is that bad considering what you get for that (but maybe you forgot about those other points).

It seems to me that the big issue for you is rather an ideological one regarding the "app store" model more than the actual 30% cut (but then again, that's what you've said pretty much already). :)

[eXode]

@ valhallasound: Also, don't be so cynical. That people contact you about your plugins is users from the community being excited about Rack Extensions and the notion of seeing your reputable plugins for that format, nothing else. Take it as a compliment. :)

[sellyoursoul]

This is an interesting point. VSTs tend to have lots of parameters and internal modulation options, but only stereo inputs and outputs. A specialized Re plugin might have fewer parameters, but an extensive mod section in the back.

I think that you bring up a good point for vst developers. Why aren't more ins/outs typically utilized for things like modulation? With multi-channel audio and MIDI, it seems like this type of stuff would be somewhat trivial, from a non-dev point of view. I would like to see more vst developers thinking about modularity between plugins. There are hosts like Reaper that allow for some modulation regardless of the plugin capabilities, but it would be nice to see this stuff being implemented at the plugin level.

Also, I think that there is something to be learned about vst plugin gui's from Reason's rack design. It is nice seeing and tweaking multiple plugin gui's without having to juggle between plugin windows, and the same goes for making connections.

[realisation]

Softube, Korg, Sugar Bytes jumped on this and will make inordinate amounts of cash from it.

Meanwhile those who don't make the same ho-hum.

Did I mention the copy protection? 30% is nothing when you have to consider piracy.

[fceramic]

@Valhalla
Not sure why you compare it with the Apple App Store. Props are basically doing the exact same thing as Ableton, letting 3rd party developers make fully integrated devices, but they are trying to make it easier and more accessable for both users and developers. How would they do this otherwise? Is copy-protection, marketing, maintenance, extensive SDK etc. not worth the 30% cut? I'm sure it's similar to all the other plugin stores that has opened in the last year?

[fceramic]

@Valhalla
Not sure why you compare it with the Apple App Store. Props are basically doing the exact same thing as Ableton, letting 3rd party developers make fully integrated devices, but they are trying to make it easier and more accessable for both users and developers. How would they do this otherwise? Is copy-protection, marketing, maintenance, extensive SDK etc. not worth the 30% cut? I'm sure it's similar to all the other plugin stores that has opened in the last year?

F#$k hate writing posts from my ipad. Sorry about the selfquote!

[pc999]

I am not a developer, but 30% seems a lot

Maybe if they get a exclusive plug they get smaller cuts like 10% or something, would be great for devs and for getting exclusives.

[eXode]

I am not a developer, but 30% seems a lot :roll:

Let me see here, you get:

1. Store solution
2. Digital distribution
3. Storing (even of older versions, for ever)
4. Propellerhead fix cross-platform for you
5. Propellerhead maintain your code base for you
6. Propellerhead offer the copy protection

The dev only need to worry about 3 things:

1. DSP
2. GUI
3. Workflow

With paypal (if you use that option) you loose a percentage on every transaction. Then you got to add hosting, the actual store solution. Count in the time and effort for you to develop multiple OS versions on your own, and maintaining that code as well as to actually implement the copy protection (which will likely be hackable? Reason 6 protection has not been hacked so far, afaik).

With this in account, I seriously don't think that those 30% seem unfair tbh.