Musikmesse 2012: Propellerhead to share "exciting news"

[eXode]

I never said it was a toy, I'm sure many professionals use it too.

I never intended to imply that you said that, sorry if it came across like that.

And the devs who are investing time into re-coding for it are enthusiastic? Of course they are, they hope to make money out of the project. Good luck to them too! And to you, I hope you all make money out of Reason.

I personally hope that it won't be as much about porting existing plugins (initially it will be, of course) as it will be about developer making unique, exclusive extensions for Reason that fully utilize Reason's potential (with regards to CV, etc).

My point about DAW manufacturers not needing to following PH's example because they already allow plug-ins is still valid. And no, I still don't see it as a proper DAW. It just is what it is, it's one of a kind for sure.

Of course they don't need to do it, I just meant that people shouldn't completely disregard the possibility that we might see companies mimic this business solution, should it prove itself. :)

[braj]

http://www.pluginboutique.com/ first link in google haha

So just out of interest, Props have pioneered nothing at all with the plug store idea
Just saying.

It still looks like you manually have to deal with everything yourself, ie. manually run the installers, deal with codes, etc. what Props are doing is a step beyond this. But it hasn't launched yet and I have some experience dealing with software projects hoping to emulate Apple's success that failed, so its still to be seen if it will even work correctly without being a PITA. But this online store really doesn't do what Props are planning. I would expect some dedicated installer service, authorization service, something much more robust. And pluginboutique.com has only been in business for a couple weeks? I call that still in the 'beta' stage. Wait and see. I think it is inevitable this will become the norm very soon.

[eXode]

http://www.pluginboutique.com/ first link in google haha

So just out of interest, Props have pioneered nothing at all with the plug store idea ;)
Just saying.

I see. So they keep old versions, maintain the various developers code base so that it's always up to date for the various hosts, make it cross platform and offer copy protection as well? Oh and you can somehow purchase from them directly from within the DAW of your choice as well?

[headquest]

Host Devs are likely to push existing Proprietary formats harder. Especially if Re does well.

...which is bad news for musicians everywhere. Less compatibility. Higher costs (unless you remain loyal to one host forever, which admittedly many do, but which shuts out new developers with innovative ideas... would we ever have had single-interface hosts with modular racks, freeze functions and PDC had it not been for Tracktion pioneering those things?).

Props need to market Reason more as a Virtual studio Rack for your existing host (again) as they used to and less as a full on Audio MIDI host (even if it is). More VST users are likely to at least try Reason Essentials + a nice subset of Re plugs, than switch to Reason outright.

This is, in my view, where Propellerhead took a totally wrong turn. At least from the point of view of independant musicians who want great tools. Propellerhead's sales figures apparently tell a different story, but I don't think that is good news for users or for the world in general, except for Propellerhead themselves.

The point is, Reason 6 (or in my case Record 1.5/Reason 5 Duo) is not exactly the stuff of Rewire Slave. Adding the audio recording/processing and the SSL mixer had two uinfortunate immediate side effects:

1) The workflow broke. Reason doesn't actually represent a real studio in a box anymore, because the link between the mixer and the rack (with its own mixers) doesn't accurately model a real studio. This is problematic from an educational perspective, but the even bigger problem it creates for all users is a THREE WINDOW setup at a time where the rest of the DAW world has increasingly moved towards a FAR more intuitive single window approach. In other words, Reason is on a journey from being one of the most immediate and intuitive programmes to being one of the least.

2) the additional CPU cycles and RAM use of Reason 6 are obvious to all users, and are becoming prohibitive to using Reason as a slave within another (already demanding) programme. This was noticeable with Record; even more so with Reason 6. Some users have analysed and shown that the three new rack effects (which we now know are Re devices) are CPU intensive compared to all the other Reason devices.

To summarise, I would say that using Reason 6 as a rewire slave is far less attractive than at any time with previous versions. I think that Propellerhead have taken Reason on a route where it basically only had lasting appeal to those who use it in isolation as their main DAW.

I'm speaking as somebody who has used Reason since version 2, both standalone and a lot as a rewire slave. And these arejust my own experiences for those who wish to listen

[Goratrix]

I see. So they keep old versions, maintain the various developers code base so that it's always up to date for the various hosts, make it cross platform and offer copy protection as well? Oh and you can somehow purchase from them directly from within the DAW of your choice as well?

So, the developers of Re devices are going to be giving Propellerheads the source code of their plugins to compile and maintain for them? I find that somewhat hard to believe.

[braj]

IMO Reason Essentials should have JUST been the old rack and not include the audio recording, with a much improved Rewire and the RE store and plugins I would have been very enthusiastic about using it as an equipment rack, which has always been the most attractive part of Reason to me.

[headquest]

Oh and you can somehow purchase from them directly from within the DAW of your choice as well?

With VSTs you get to make more choices. But having the freedom to use the instruments and effects you REALLY want, rather than the limited range that will be offered (at least in the forseeable future) in the Propellerhead fanstore.

From a user point of view the choice is:

Either:

* use Reason
* limit yourself to Rack Extension instruments and effects.
* be tied to Reason forever
* have a relatively easy and comfortable life within their walled garden, and don't worry too much about your loss of personal and creative freedom

Or:

* use the host of your choice, and change freely between hosts
* use VST plugins which work in multiple hosts, including your audio editor, your notation software, etc.... all the important additional software programmes that most musicians also rely on apart from their DAW, but where Re does not and probably never will work
* have some added hassle in life in terms of shopping around ffor the best instruments and effects from a far wider choice, and purchasing from potentially a range of different developers/stores
* accepting this is the price of your freedom to choose.

I guess it's like furnishing your home in a way - you could buy absolutely everything from IKEA and spend less time shopping around, but more time connecting it all together.

Or you could go to bespoke furniture shops and get far higher quality stuff

[headquest]

IMO Reason Essentials should have JUST been the old rack and not include the audio recording, with a much improved Rewire and the RE store and plugins I would have been very enthusiastic about using it as an equipment rack, which has always been the most attractive part of Reason to me.

+1

[christianmusicmaker]

The Propshop could simply ask the dev for a time sensitive link to use for downloading content.

PH said they will host all plugins, all versions, forever...

I agree. Props will host plugins not content. That was my point. Props requesting a link from a Dev does not mean they (Props) need to host any content. That link will direct a user to the content hosted elsewhere by the dev that developed the app.

Unless they change this that means when I sit at any computer I can plug in my stick and have access to all the plugins I own by pressing the download button.

Yes. Content hosted elsewhere changes none of that. You should still get access to your plug ins from the Props shop as they promised.

This would not work with a time sensitive link.

That process is already used by devs like Cakewalk so it already being used. Props need to do nothing at all other than...

a. ...notify the dev a purchase has been made

b....and then send a receipt out to a user with two links. One to download their app / plugin from the Prop shop and another (time sensitive) link that directs them to the content hosted by the dev of the plugin elsewhere.

c...or when Props send out the sale notification to the dev of a sale the email address of the buyer can show up there. The dev can see this app offers sample content so they can simply send an email to the buyer with a link to the content. This is a process already in use by some devs. The whole notification process for buyer and dev will likely take minutes to complete.

Nor would any developer want their libraries downloaded online. That would really not help piracy of their content.

Sure some devs would want to sell their libraries a certain way but to say "Nor would any developer want their libraries downloaded online." is definitely not correct.

The best example I can give is Yellow Tools / Magix. The offer the Independence Basic Sampler with a 12GB downloadable library. They also have 30 or more separate downloadable sample libraries that are in some cases multi gigabytes in size. All downloadable as separate purchases. So clearly there are devs who are very happy to have their sample libraries downloaded.

Should they wish to Magix could easily manage content but have Props manage the plugin sale, distribution and copy protection of a tailor made plugin version of Independence for Re. Content management and Plugin managment can co - exist for Re plugs. Props handle Plugins...Devs handle Content.

Props might want to do things differently with their shop but that does not mean it cannot be done or it is not desirable for some devs. Or even that another rival Hosts dev shop will not operate that way in future.

[braj]

I guess it's like furnishing your home in a way - you could buy absolutely everything from IKEA and spend less time shopping around, but more time connecting it all together.

Not to mention you have competition for low prices for your furniture, and buy it used. There are certain plugins that I have that if I bought new would have been 75% more.

[darsho]

I have been following this discussion with interest.

I am not a Reason user so far, but I have looked at the program in the past at a producer friend and I like it.

But I chose a different path some years ago and run a normal DAW with all kinds of plugins and invested quite some money over the years.

However, I will look at Reason again if it is possible to export projects from Figure (like iMaschine -> Maschine).

Yet, from a possible new user perspective, I am extremely hesistant to pay again for Rack Extensions that I already own as VST plugins.
Or the other way round, if I buy a RE, I will have to buy again the same plugin only in a different format for my DAW. I would not do that. If I buy a plugin or a RE or however it is called, I would expect to be able to run it in any format, like buying a plugin now give me the possibility to run it as VST or AU or RTAS (if I would want to).

Also what is making be a bit sceptical is this :
I love to exchange Projects with a fellow Maschine user. I just send him a file and I know he can run it 100% on his system.
Now with a new Reason, if somebody owned different Rack Extensions, this is not possible. Not so good, as I love collabs. Of course one could just stick to standard sound generators that everybody has. But them 100% compatibility is broken.

However, as stated, if an export from Figure to Reason is possible (as an editable project with MIDI and such !) I will be sold and get me Reason after all.
I have tons of fun using iMaschine on my way home from work and later continue to work on the project in Maschine which runs inside my DAW or standalone.
And Figure looks like a lot of fun to me, judging from the YT videos about it.

something else :
somebody here mentioned the IK business model with buying a basic functionality and getting new amps and such if needed at their shop.
From a possible new user perspective, I like this idea for Reason.
I would get me only a basic Reason Essentials and the stuff I need to work on the Figure projects (if possible in the future, just as a thought).

I doubt I would use Reason as my main program, so I truly hope for a way to export Figure projects to Reason Essentials or any stripped down version of it.
time will tell.

just my 2 cents atm, opionions may change, however .g.

[eXode]

I see. So they keep old versions, maintain the various developers code base so that it's always up to date for the various hosts, make it cross platform and offer copy protection as well? Oh and you can somehow purchase from them directly from within the DAW of your choice as well?

So, the developers of Re devices are going to be giving Propellerheads the source code of their plugins to compile and maintain for them? I find that somewhat hard to believe.

I'm not a dev myself so I don't know how the solution works, I find it hard to believe that they jave to give away any source code, but to quote Urs Heckmann:

Thing is, we won't have as much support (hopefully), we don't have to deal with licenses, we don't have to maintain crossplatform whatsoever, we don't have to care about too many things at all. Propellerhead will take a whole lot of stuff from our backs. That makes unbundling them a viable option, and so we will.

I was sure that there was another post on this topic in this very thread but search is kind of limited in those regards and I can't be arsed browsing through all 60 pages to find it.

[EnochLight]

Wow... just have to mention - for a thread at KVR that seems to bring out so many perspectives from all sides, at over 65,000 views and almost 900 replies, I'd say that Propellerhead Reason is a lot more popular than many here would like to believe!

[sensorium]

I know that an optimistic viewpoint doesn't seem to sit well with this thread, but I'm both a Reason and VST user and am I allowed to say I'm excited about rack extensions?

I have limited time to make music, and I would *love* to be rid of having to search the KVR plugin database, install lots of demos and take ages to find what I'm looking for. (In fact, that's a fear I have of the RE shop, what happens if there are just too many REs, ha!)

When I upgrade my computer, I hate having to reinstall and authorise all my plugins, so I welcome standardisation for this. I have actually stopped using several plugins I've paid for because either the installs fail for some reason, or I just can't be bothered to jump through hoops to get some authorisation system working (cheerio firebird, it was good while it lasted). It doesn't always happen when I upgrade the computer either -- I've had the synchrosoft license just stop working for no apparent reason before.

I've also lost several past projects, which rely on VST plugins I no longer have (I know, I know, I should bounce stems to audio... could someone please go back in time and tell my past-self that?)

I appreciate that I haven't had these problems with my Reason projects, but of course there are downsides of using Reason. I'm not going to get into the whole "quality" debate because after using both Reason and VSTs (and recreating many of the VST sounds and effects in Reason), I believe that quality is a subjective term and I don't buy that Reason is as bad as a lot of people here would have me believe.

The biggest negative of Reason for me has been that when an upgrade comes along, it might not have stuff that I particularly want (I'm not bothered about Kong for example). Rack Extensions seem a way to deal with that, to get more synths and effects into Reason in a more timely fashion.

I love this idea! And I love the idea that each RE will have a demo, and a one click buy, things like that.

Don't underestimate convenience! If you don't like it, or think Reason is the devil in software form, or want to keep using VSTs, no-one's going to stop you.

Now, I was going to go shopping this afternoon in IKEA, but after reading this thread, I think I should go to high class boutique instead and pay four times as much for a table which is going to be covered in a table cloth anyway.

[EnochLight]

Now, I was going to go shopping this afternoon in IKEA, but after reading this thread, I think I should go to high class boutique instead and pay four times as much for a table which is going to be covered in a table cloth anyway.

Ohhhhh no he didn't!!!