Musikmesse 2012: Propellerhead to share "exciting news"

[CT]

Of course Appled added shine to it, thats what they do. They just added virus protection on OSX too. Catchup, yes. Pioneering? no

Yea .. In a way thats similar to how bugatti or mclaren are not pioneering

[christianmusicmaker]

Fair point. That said, technically Record does still exist - its just called Reason 6 now. I was just merely making an observation on the apparent interest this has generated.

Cool. Sorry if I came across as nitpicking

[UltraJv]

Of course Appled added shine to it, thats what they do. They just added virus protection on OSX too. Catchup, yes. Pioneering? no

Yea .. In a way thats similar to how bugatti or mclaren are not pioneering

If youd like to give me an example of Apple doing something first in technology, Ill correct it BUT thats off topic

[CT]

Bugatti or mclaren didnt invent cars .. I dont think you understood the implications of my previous post.

[UltraJv]

Bugatti or mclaren didnt invent cars .. I dont think you understood the implications of my previous post.

Fair enough. We agree that Apple add shine

[headquest]

Almost every new feature you see in Reason since 1.0 appeared came at the request of users, and/or had already been planned anyway.

So tell me which assh*le asked them to separate the mixer from the rack?

Who asked them for three-windows instead of two?

Who asked them for the codemeter dongle?

For that matter who asked for Neptune? Or the Vocoder in 2.5 (when there weren't even vocal recording abilities)?

Who asked for Blocks?

<cough> .... or Rack Extensions?


It's fair to say that Propellerhead are fantastic innovators in their own right, and come up with some great (and a few not so great) ideas. But they certainly don't pay too much attention to user requests - I've been using all their stuff for a decade now, and rarely seen them add something that was high on the user-request list.

Were they doing that, then there's all sorts of long-standing requests they would pay attention to, such as adding sample import into Maelstrom, long-standing requests for improvements to NN-XT to bring it in line with modern software samplers, etc.

Stuff like MIDI out, which you mention, is a recent request because Propellerhead changed direction with Reason and started to make it like a DAW. So you can now add to that list stuff like Video sync, Track folders/groups/mix busses, Broader range of file support, OMF/etc, freeze, PDC, better MIDI editing, better studio integration, notation ....

Reason up to v5 was a super-cool standalone electronic music making package - a unique product that sat nicely alongside the main DAW as a rewire client. Rack extensions would have been a great addition in fact... except that with Record (RIP) and now Reason 6, Propellerhead have swapped their market leading and unique product for a basic DAW that is simply years behind all the competition in terms of core DAW features.

[EnochLight]

] The failure of Record (a tailor made product for their own userbase) must make devs more than a bit cautious. Re could work but then again it could go the same way as Record in a few years, it is a gamble.

I realize it must be easy to see Record as a failure, but every single one of its features (including GUI and workflow) lives on in Reason currently. From the way I interpret it, Record was merged with Reason probably because Reason was being looked at as a lesser product since you had to buy Record just to have audio recording and the far superior SSL mixer. I think Propellerhead made the conscious choice to eliminate Record as a separate product since Reason had been their flagship for a decade.

The response from the user community has been overwhelmingly positive, and I don't think I've ever read a review on Reason since Record was merged with it that portrayed it in a negative light (aside from the usual notes of missing MIDI out and no VSTi).

Still, as the only other separate product to emerge post-ReCycle/ReBirth (aside from Balance), I can see how the elimination of Record as a standalone product might make people think.

[EnochLight]

Fair point. That said, technically Record does still exist - its just called Reason 6 now. I was just merely making an observation on the apparent interest this has generated.

Cool. Sorry if I came across as nitpicking

Oh not at all - its all good!

[CT]

Bugatti or mclaren didnt invent cars .. I dont think you understood the implications of my previous post.

Fair enough. We agree that Apple add shine

Yes we do

But I'd also add that "shine" is an over simplification. There is an added value to anything that may be perceived to perform better or differently than the standard or original method for that particular thing. Each person will measure that value differently. Some may perceive it as being genuinely better, while others will see it as "shiny" or fancy, or just made to look better in a way that does not represent real value. While alot of these things arguably dont have real value, and are just shiny objects, some arent like that. I reckon the app store and apple in general, isn't.

[SJ_Digriz]

Most of the choices Steinberg makes does not make sense and customers don't like.

Read their forums.

Wow, this is one of the most ignorant statements I've read on the internet. Steinberg makes an open SDK |||FOR FREE||| for both instrument and audio. No paying royalties or tithes to the masters. You are free to use it as you see fit. Is it perfect, no. But, it did make a FREE open market possible.

And now, somebody is copying the closed "app store" model that has made Apple zillionaires by locking the iZombies into micro-transactions, and you see it as a good thing? Jesus, no wonder wonder the world is so f**ked up.

[EnochLight]

Almost every new feature you see in Reason since 1.0 appeared came at the request of users, and/or had already been planned anyway.

So tell me which assh*le asked them to separate the mixer from the rack?

Who asked them for three-windows instead of two?

Who asked them for the codemeter dongle?

For that matter who asked for Neptune? Or the Vocoder in 2.5 (when there weren't even vocal recording abilities)?

Who asked for Blocks?

<cough> .... or Rack Extensions?

There are threads in the Feature Suggestion forum that have requested many of these features or something similar for many years prior to their appearance. I can't be bothered to search for them, but having been around there for the better part of 12 years, I can attest that I have seen them. Do a search yourself; you're bound to find them.

Personally, I requested something like Blocks myself - it reminds me of how I used to compose on my old digital workstation back in the late 80's/early 90's. The concept is not new - it's pattern based sequencing (similar to the way Ensoniq's workstations used to work). I love them.

Having 3 windows for each work area (Rack, Mixer, Sequencer) was a solution to the choices made in the GUI. As I work with multiple monitors (as do many professional studios and users), I couldn't be happier. On a single monitor (or a laptop), they are easily shown full screen via shortcut keys. It works great; not sure why you have so much hate for it.

The mixer being taken out of the rack was more than likely a design choice due to the complexity of the SSL and the need for individual audio, instrument, or mixer channels being treated as separate Combinators. While I wouldn't go as far as saying it was an assh*le design choice, I quite like it and have no problem working with it now. In fact, I prefer it over the limited 14:2 (which now just serves as a great way to get groups together for a single SSL channel).

The codemeter dongle.. Eh.. I really don't get all of the hate with it. I guess I can see the difficulty with having to carry around a key dongle for those on the go and without Internet, but I suppose it was the only way to eliminate the piracy issue. Like it or not, Reason in its current form is yet to be cracked and broadly pirated. As an advocate against piracy, I can only agree with the choice. That said, I use Balance as my audio interface so I never have to deal with a separate dongle. Whenever I am at a secondary or third workstation and don't bring Balance, I make it a point to have Internet so I can authorize that way. A slight hassle, but not a deal breaker for me.

The Vocoder was always an enigma at the time, as getting audio into it was always a challenge, but it served more purpose than just being a Vocoder. That said, it was a longtime feature request among users - even before audio-in ala Record. And Neptune was a long time feature request (assuming audio-in came along), which is why you saw Neptune appear when Record hit 1.5. I'm betting it was planned for 1.0 but wasn't ready at the time.

You're shocked that most of these were actual feature requests among users???

And Rack Extensions - we all KNOW why this came about: Reason is a sandboxed ecosystem. Let's see how it plays out before you automatically write that off as another assh*le move...

It's fair to say that Propellerhead are fantastic innovators in their own right, and come up with some great (and a few not so great) ideas. But they certainly don't pay too much attention to user requests - I've been using all their stuff for a decade now, and rarely seen them add something that was high on the user-request list.

Nothing high on the list, eh? Like... sampling, audio in, a better sampler than the NN19 or a better synth than the Subtractor? A better reverb? More effects? These are but a few that were high on the list and they were all added.

Were they doing that, then there's all sorts of long-standing requests they would pay attention to, such as adding sample import into Maelstrom, long-standing requests for improvements to NN-XT to bring it in line with modern software samplers, etc.

I'm not saying there are things that people still don't want - we all want more. I'd love to have the Malström be able to sample or a new sampler. Many do. Perhaps we'll see them eventually, but we've gotten in the meantime is infinitely more valuable IMHO.

Stuff like MIDI out, which you mention, is a recent request because Propellerhead changed direction with Reason and started to make it like a DAW.

Thinking that MIDI out being a recent request is incorrect. I've been aboard since ReBirth, and ever since Reason appeared at 1.0 users have been asking for MIDI out. I'd love to have it myself - I have an original Roland Juno 106 I'd love to hook up to Reason!

So you can now add to that list stuff like Video sync, Track folders/groups/mix busses, Broader range of file support, OMF/etc, freeze, PDC, better MIDI editing, better studio integration, notation ....

Reason up to v5 was a super-cool standalone electronic music making package - a unique product that sat nicely alongside the main DAW as a rewire client. Rack extensions would have been a great addition in fact... except that with Record (RIP) and now Reason 6, Propellerhead have swapped their market leading and unique product for a basic DAW that is simply years behind all the competition in terms of core DAW features.

Reason is in need of many things - I'll be the first to say it, but I highly doubt the choice to merge Record with Reason as a standalone product has made it a second rate product that is no longer market leading. It does modify its course as a product line, though, and I think we will see it start to compete more and more with traditional DAW's on the market as many of these features are added. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to what Rack Extensions brings to the table and the direction Propellerhead take with it. Fail or succeed, us consumers *cough* musicians *cough* win in the end. Competition is good.

[luckystrike]

I'd like to dislike Apple rather than Steiny. Also, I became I don't care how Swedish software company markets their products after seeing how Apple did and is doing their marketing.

[liquidsound]

You can win the rat race but you still a rat!
That's Reason when it come to the real deal: the Sequencer, the heart of any DAW and I can't imagine them being able to make a good one.
They had all the time in the world to do it and what do we have in Reason 6? They will need something outstanding to change the game for real other than marketing smoke and evangelism.

Look at reaper for example, that thing can be customized in an amazing numbers of ways and still people complains about either the look or the too many menu choices or whatever. Then you have Live and it's never good enough for mixer, arrangement view and the Pianoroll, Cubase, Sonar, Studio One... Many of us own at least two major DAWs because they can't fulfill our inflated needs and we are dreaming of Reason being capable to taming our thirst for perfection? All it is, is that is going to be "a new TOY" with a huge catch: A Closed System Designed and Controlled by inflexible visionary group running out of real estate in their isolated island.
I'm with Reason from 2.5 and I enjoy what I can do with it but it's less than what I can't do with it.

How I got to Reason 6? Because I have tracks in it and also used it as a rewire, and for a little cash you just keep up with it adding here and there some and some not cool features. I recently moved on from Live to S1 and I'm working in moving my projects in S1 to be my main DAW and "I actually can", for the work in progress and, when I will have the time also for the past work, because I hardly use built in Synths and some effects.

This is freedom and if Re idea succeeds, as a new paradigm, we are going to loose this freedom and be faced with unhealthy, forceful commitment to a closed system being with the PH, Albeton, Cubase etc. All for the 30% cut for them and for the 100% commitment from us if this "time release freedom poison" takes foot hold in the industry at large.
Some here are just extatic about reinstallation issues and are willing to exchange that with freedom of choices. That's ridiculous!
How many times a year you do that, and haw many time a day you are going to deal with an handicap DAW just for that.
Reason is a synth workstation with a mixer and a dead end sequencer.

Just imagine this: whatever DAW you are using now, with ALL your plugins and your music in it and you decide it's no longer for you and you are going to face a dilemma. Make love to your credit card or stay forcefully in your situation which in turn effects your very thing you are ultimately in love with; your music.

For Reason to evolve to a level close to Cubase or S1 will take probably forever, if they're ever willing to do so, because the more you get into their system the less power you have, and inversely, the more power they will have.

I feel that we did reach a point of stagnation in DAW design because we're getting just more and more feature but not new approaches for making music with a DAW. Live session view has being probably the only lateral thinking efforts to that.
Reason different approach is limited to the sound production and the Blocks In the arrangement aspect.

At this point my concern is that the greed for the 30% is going to poison our freedom of choices (if other major players follow the same path) after investing time and money and not being able to keep our journey of exploration as it is happening in the real world where the little guy if forced to sell or merge to the giant corporations which in turn are shaping what we want AND need.

By the content of this topic you will probably disagree with me, but thing will come to pass based in the way we partake with it.

[Meffy]

So tell me which assh*le asked them to separate the mixer from the rack?

Little reminder -- to everyone -- that KVR has a rule about civility. If you find yourself getting angry while posting, consider stepping away from the keyboard, coming back when cooler, and seeing whether what you're thinking is worth taking things to the personal level. Thanks.

[headquest]

Understood
(and won't bother replying to his latest rant about how great PH stuff is...)