Musikmesse 2012: Propellerhead to share "exciting news"

[FaX]

For starters - it wasn't the same product by a long shot. Not in the least. Between audio transpose, the Echo, Alligator, and Pulverizer - these alone were easily worth $169. It's nice to hear you helped out with testing though!

So you paid $169 for it as an upgrade from the Duo, during the PWYW phase ...?

Again - you and I should just agree to disagree as I suggested earlier. I'll never agree with your perspective, and you clearly don't agree with mine.

Sure I agree to differ. You have your opinion, I have mine. We're taking part in the same healthy adult debate, and certainly as far as I'm concerned there no disrespect to you in the process, so I hope it didn't come over that way. But I do have an opinion, and I will continue to express it, here and elsewhere. As I'm sure will you. And it's all cool

I paid $100 for PWYW myself but then again i don't see Reason (Reason at 6.5) being the be all and end all of my production process either (for what it's worth).

[Crackbaby]

I just learned how to use Reason 6 as 32 bit so i can use it in XT.. (add /32 on the installer). Ubermod can make reason synths come to life If it only wasn't for the mysterious pops and crackles ....

[FrankT]

I think that Re just opens up new possibilities - which is a good thing. More options for musicians, new markets for developers.

Some observations:

I would not like having to buy the same Synths/effects twice. Therefore developers should not just port over existing VSTs/AUs, but instead come up with new stuff that is particularly geared to the Reason environment. Or find a way to compensate loyal customers.

Re App store distribution costs: Not sure whether 30% has been confirmed by the Props and I understand some of the reservations. Nonetheless I dont think the Re concept will cannibalise a Developer's existing VST/AU market. 70% pct of a new market seems better than 0% from nothing.

One host to rule them all? Oh, come on, we've been there before !
Project Sam Synthopia or Cinematic Strings developed for NN-XT ? Complex midi-scoring in the Reason sequencer? Long way to go

Reason primarily is for electronic music. It is not a host to rule them all and it never will be.

[Dogboy73]

I think that Re just opens up new possibilities

That's the way I see it.

I would not like having to buy the same Synths/effects twice. Therefore developers should not just port over existing VSTs/AUs, but instead come up with new stuff that is particularly geared to the Reason environment. Or find a way to compensate loyal customers.

I think it's pretty much universal that any Reason user that also owns plug-ins feels exactly the same way. So this issue really needs to be addressed by developers. We don't yet know what the pricing will be so it may be a moot point. But it's hard to imagine that a VST that might costs £100 would turn up as an RE for significantly less. That would then seem like a pretty raw deal for the VST users.

Like yourself I also imagine more bespoke devices for the Reason rack rather than straight ports of existing plug-ins. Maybe what's going on under the hood will be the same (the DSP coding) but everything else would be very different with the Reason rack in mind. This approach seems more logical to me as opposed to straight ports of existing plug-ins but who know how things will pan out?!

Re App store distribution costs: Not sure whether 30% has been confirmed by the Props and I understand some of the reservations. Nonetheless I don't think the Re concept will cannibalise a Developer's existing VST/AU market. 70% pct of a new market seems better than 0% from nothing.

I think 30% has been confirmed. Is that a good deal for developers? I guess only they can answer that & no doubt each will have their own take on it. I think the thing that will make or break this is how the RE devices are priced. If developers can keep pricing low more people will be inclined to jump in & buy an RE device. To high & the potential customers are greatly reduced. Actually the Apple App store is a good barometer for how this will work - take Propellerhead's iOS App Figure. It will cost just $1, as many Apps do. At that price who is not going to give it a try? $10 Apps, still not a great deal of money, suddenly becomes a different prospect. Now you want to know more about the App, what it does, how well does it do it, what do other people think of it? You might buy 10 $1 Apps in a heartbeat. But you give a lot more thought to buying 1 $10 App. So I think pricing is crucial for the success of the RE shop & it also lends weight to the idea that straight ports of existing plug-ins would be hard to make work because of how many of them are currently priced.

[Synthbuilder]

Several things come to mind:

PWYW was only for folk who owned Reason and Record not just Reason owners. So loyal Reason owners were not so rewarded.

Some Reason owners, well me, liked the fact that Record was separate. Because we, I mean I, didn't want or need the features that Record had. I use Reason as a rewired rack. All the other stuff in Record was superfluous. And before anyone tells me just don't use the extra stuff - try telling that to my CPU, RAM and monitor. Once upon a time Reason was a light weight way to add some nice synths and sample players.

With Reason 6 and now perhaps with Re we see Reason breaking off and becoming a complete DAW. Reason is no longer the rack, it's the lot. Well, all except for midi out (even a midi clock or MTC out would be nice).

For Reason/Record only owners this is great news. For those that use it as a rewire slave well, maybe... but I'm not sure it's the way I want to go.

And, I've got an Ikea bed frame, and yes, it's not a standard size here in the UK. But most of the big mattress manufacturers do make a limited selection of their products in Ikea size.

Tony

[headquest]

Final post about this, but to explain why it's relevant at least

And I've personally never seen €99 for a Reason 6 upgrade for Duo owners. The press release is the official, and correct statement.

99 euros upgrade from R/R Duo was the price announced on their website with the original product announcement last summer. It was much debated on their forum and elsewhere, as a quick search will reveal. Many of the regular users and some who were already trying out the software during beta testing shared the opinion that 99 euros was rather steep for those Reason users who had so recently invested in the Record platform. And Propellerhead responded to those comments by announcing the PWYW special deal.

I had actually argued that 99 euros was a fair price for Duo owners, but asked Propellerhead to clarify that after PWYW the price would revert to that. This was a specific price for the specific product of the Reason 6 download upgrade for Duo owners. They responded saying prices would revert to the original announced upgrades... by which it seems they apparently just meant the Reason 5 boxed upgrade for 149 euros, but not the 99 euro download Duo upgrade originally announced on their website. That product was simply withdrawn without explanation.

It wasn't just me who misunderstood: until recently, others on the Propellerhead forum were still advising Duo owners that the upgrade for us costs 99 euros. Anyway, to be clear, I don't believe Propellerhead were deliberately dishonest or evasive, simply ambiguous. But some of us certainly misunderstood, and their subsequent response has basically been to say "tough" (in their own polite words of course!)

Q. Why dies this matter so much?
A. Because it shows that Propellerhead can be changeable on issues of pricing.

This might be disconcerting news for any developers wanting to partner with them, as well as potential customers. That the upgrade price switched from 99 euros to PWYW and then to 149 euros in three months is beyond dispute.

I run a small but very successful business. And I can tell you that it's an iron-fast rule that the price you quote is the price you charge. If I say that a product or service costs a certain amount, that's what I then charge. I don't need to make a press announcement - I say the price with my words and my clients know that they can trust my word. And if there is any misunderstanding, I give my customers the benefit of the doubt, accept responsibility for perhaps not communicating effectively, and demonstrate that I genuinely value their custom.

Not sure whether 30% has been confirmed by the Props and I understand some of the reservations....

Yes it has. It's in the public statement Ernst made. The question is - will Propellerhead stick to that price?

They may decide to have a special introductory offer of 90/10 spilt. Then the following month perhaps they will decide it's a 50/50 spilt, leaving the small developers reeling .... obviously there needs to be a clear contract for those involved (and no doubt will be....)

So I hope that explains why I thought this issue was worth sharing here. And in closing, I'll say again that I have had a huge amount of fun using Propellerhead products in my music making, both professional and amateur, over many years. I continue to regularly use Record/Reason, and am likely to for the forseeable future. Perhaps at some point they will even show some good faith, accept their part in any misunderstanding, and prove that they really do "value their loyal customers"...

Either way I wish Propellerhead well with Rack Extensions, and hope that by putting the spotlight on something I feel is an important issue I have not offended anyone here. Thanks.

[EnochLight]

At the end of the day, Propellerhead are a business and need to generate a profit. As much as I'm sure they would like to reward all loyal customers (I've been one since ReBirth), they simply cannot afford to give their products away. They MUST charge for updates - it takes tens of thousands to millions of dollars/Euros to develop software over each version.

The prices that I've seen them charge are not out of line with the industry. Simple as that. No one is forced to upgrade - you can keep your prior versions and ReWire to your heart's content without issue (aside from the hurdles inherent to working within ReWire).

I seriously do not understand what all of the fuss is about regarding their upgrade paths/prices.

[headquest]

I seriously do not understand what all of the fuss is about regarding their upgrade paths/prices.

As I said, I'm going out of this discussion now because I've said my piece...
except to really Underline that it is not an argument over 50 euros extra. It's about whether I can trust what they say anymore. That's the only point.

[Dogboy73]

PWYW was only for folk who owned Reason and Record not just Reason owners. So loyal Reason owners were not so rewarded.

The thing was Reason/Record owners felt like they were getting a bit of a bad deal with the Reason 6 ugrade. Essentially all we were getting was the three (excellent I have to say) new devices & a few workflow improvements. The jump from Reason 5 to 6 for users that didn't have Record offered a hell of a lot more. But of course not everyone .....

Some Reason owners, well me, liked the fact that Record was separate. I use Reason as a rewired rack. All the other stuff in Record was superfluous.

..... thought that was a good idea

And, I've got an Ikea bed frame, and yes, it's not a standard size here in the UK. But most of the big mattress manufacturers do make a limited selection of their products in Ikea size.

Do you think there is a market for a version of Reason that is just the rack? I think this might be viable. Reason, Reason Essentials & Reason Rack. Reason has everything of course. Reason Essentials has everything less some of the Reason devices but is open to RE so I guess this will matter less. Reason Rack is literally just the rack with a few devices & the option to add RE's. It wouldn't have the mixer & maybe not even the sequencer. Actually out of all three of those options Reason Essentials seems to make the least sense!! Beyond the price it will be the same as Reason more or less. Especially when you take RE's into account.

With Reason 6 and now perhaps with Re we see Reason breaking off and becoming a complete DAW. Reason is no longer the rack, it's the lot. Well, all except for midi out (even a midi clock or MTC out would be nice).

For me it's been a DAW since Record. It couldn't be called that before because there was obviously no audio editing or support (beyond being able to load audio into some of the devices). The final piece of the jigsaw is now MIDI-output. With this it truly has the potential to become the centre of your studio. Without it you're still going to need something else to take care of that MIDI hardware you've got in your set-up, which many of us have, including the Props guys themselves! Surely having this support must be on the agenda? If not Reason might be missing out on its potential. It's my favourite, go-to software & has been for some time, even without MIDI-output, audio recording & plug-ins (RE's). But it narks me more than ever that with the leaps & bounds it's made since Record came along I STILL have to rely on another means to control MIDI gear!! Crazy because it really does do everything else now!!

[EnochLight]

I seriously do not understand what all of the fuss is about regarding their upgrade paths/prices.

As I said, I'm going out of this discussion now because I've said my piece...
except to really Underline that it is not an argument over 50 euros extra. It's about whether I can trust what they say anymore. That's the only point.

You and I posted at the same time; I see that your concern is distrust for what they publicize. That said, I was present during the same beta test and publicized announcements. I don't remember the events that you describe, but bare in mind that I'm not saying your version of the events is untrue - I just honestly don't remember. Still, I can understand your concern if that is how you remember it happening.

[headquest]

Thanks. You were probably working harder on the actual beta testing! And my memory isn't perfect either

Like I said though - if there's a misunderstanding then the solution comes down to customer service, and how you want to relate to your loyal users. In my own business I give my customers the benefit of the doubt, accept responsibility for perhaps not communicating effectively, and demonstrate that I genuinely value their custom.

Anyway, thanks for taking time to understand where I am coming from, and peace

[gpunk]

I see. So they keep old versions, maintain the various developers code base so that it's always up to date for the various hosts

OK you just ruled about 95% of developers out from ever doing anything for RE if they are supposed to hand source over to Props
(Not going to happen, so not sure where you got that info)

[Anosou]

I see. So they keep old versions, maintain the various developers code base so that it's always up to date for the various hosts

OK you just ruled about 95% of developers out from ever doing anything for RE if they are supposed to hand source over to Props
(Not going to happen, so not sure where you got that info)

I'd recommend not speculating too much on this as there's NO info out on it. Remember, we did a technology preview. There's more info to come and there's more info in the SDK!

[gpunk]

I see. So they keep old versions, maintain the various developers code base so that it's always up to date for the various hosts

OK you just ruled about 95% of developers out from ever doing anything for RE if they are supposed to hand source over to Props
(Not going to happen, so not sure where you got that info)

I'd recommend not speculating too much on this as there's NO info out on it. Remember, we did a technology preview. There's more info to come and there's more info in the SDK!

Why quote me ?
Quote eXode, I wasn't speculating when I stated that 95% of devs will not give their source to another company (And my estimate is probably low hahaha)

[eXode]

I'd recommend not speculating too much on this as there's NO info out on it. Remember, we did a technology preview. There's more info to come and there's more info in the SDK! :)

I read the information about maintaining the code base either here or on CDM. But perhaps you were referring to the part about the source code? :)