Musikmesse 2012: Propellerhead to share "exciting news"

[justin3am]

Didn't see anybody mentioning it yet, but it's interesting to note that Kontakt's GUI is already based on a rack concept....

As it's been for as long as I can remember. Doesn't mean the Kontakt rack concept will fit nicely within Reason's Rack. Further, you have to consider that Kontakt allows for user editable UI... I don't know how well that will work within the RE guidelines.

[headquest]

All the NI stuff kinda disproves what Ernst characterises about VST plugs. They have uniform behaviour across the entire range, can be used in very flexible ways, amazing preset browsing, etc. Some of them don't even crash

[justin3am]

All the NI stuff kinda disproves what Ernst characterises about VST plugs. They have uniform behaviour across the entire range, can be used in very flexible ways, amazing preset browsing, etc. Some of them don't even crash

True to some extent. More and more, I'm starting to appreciate the Rack approach in Reason. It's very similar to how things are done in Numerology (my favorite software for modular madness) and it has a lot of the aspects of Kore that I really liked. The one thing that NI can't do is control how their instruments and effects interface with the host software (with the exception of Machine or Kore, which I don't see as complete host/DAW solutions) and I think that is where Reason has an advantage.

Sure NI's effects and instruments are very flexible within themselves but more advanced interaction between devices would be a big plus in my book. Maybe it's not something that appeals to everyone just yet, but this approach just needs a killer application for it to appeal to a broader audience. I think that thinking forward in this regard is rarely a bad thing... where as, trying to maintain the status quo often has negative results.

[bmrzycki]

To me VSTs are little islands of sound. It's the exception, not the rule, that lets you intermingle parts.

Reason is all about letting those devices mingle and getting cozy with each other. Add in the combinator and you have loadable/savable mini-instruments. Sure this can be done somewhat with VSTs (bidule, logic environment, usine) but I've never found anything with as straight-forward and musical workflow.

I'm hoping for some free (or low cost) cv manipulators to fill in some of the gaps in the current rack (simple cv rectify, non-linear sweeps, one-shot enevelope triggers, glide source) will make things very interesting.

Reason isn't perfect (what host is?) and RE goes a long way in my book into making the product much more compelling. I need to get my hands on that SDK...

[headquest]

People are fickle on the one hand, but defend to the hilt their prefered choices on the other hand.... For example, if Waves ported the Renaissance effects suite to the Re format for Reason, users on the Propellerhead forum would go wild with excitement. Let's face it - they are good effects compared to most of the ones currently in the rack. And yet in VST land those effects have been replaced many times over in the last decade

Did anyone ever seriously have a crash caused by REQ or Rverb? Or find their preset menu hard to locate?

But it comes down to personal choice. Perhaps some of these old VSTs will finally get Reason versions and sell like hot cakes all over again, long after the VST users moved on to superior modern effects choices. Funny world

Personally I'm right with those that would prefer to see Reason devices that are specifically tailored to fill the gaps in Reason...
...but from a commercial point of view I still feel they need to get Kontakt Player and/or similar into the Re format as a priority so that the sample libraries used by professionals daily can be used in Reason. That would significantly change the game

[headquest]

Sure this can be done somewhat with VSTs (bidule, logic environment, usine) but I've never found anything with as straight-forward and musical workflow.

This is where, for me, Ableton Live has an even bigger advantage with its Instrument Devices and Effects Devices, which are it's alternative to Reason's Combinator:

Firstly because it is even more powerful, yet even more easy that the Reason Combinator.
Secondly because you can quickly and easily set up complex patches that use Reason's instruments, hardware synths, Ableton devices, and VST/AU instruments and effects, all saved within a single patch with as many layers as you want.
Thirdly because you can have nested Instrument and Effect Devices in Live, which exponentially raises the game

A similar concept - and Propellerhead got their first - but Ableton have I think an execution of the concept that is both easier and more powerful at the same time.

[xh3rv]

they need to get Kontakt Player and/or similar into the Re format ... That would significantly change the game

I'll apologize now for completely destroying the context and already regret hitting 'submit' but these two statements juxtaposed just look absurd to me

I could be ignorant - would Kontakt be particularly well suited for Reason? Is the engine an interesting front-end or is it all about the libraries?

[e: from another post]

Ableton Live has an even bigger advantage with its Instrument Devices and Effects Devices, which are it's alternative to Reason's Combinator

Ableton's racks are nice when they're streamlined and have plenty of strong points, but Ableton's racks plus track view is seriously cramped and nothing like Reason's rack as a whole. I think that's by design, as well, Ableton is not supposed to sprawl, except maybe in session clips. Routing kinda gets tedious in Ableton, not very inspiring, although compact. All IMO.

[EnochLight]

As somebody who has used both Reason and Live (with VSTs) for years, I would say without hesitation that the quality of Reason's built in effects do not come close to that offered by top end developers such as Waves, PSP Audioware, UA, fabfilter, etc. In fact they struggle to compete with the built in effects that are bundled with the big hosts such as Logic, Cubase, Sonar, etc, quite apart from the high end VSTs.

I'm curious - can you point to actual audio examples of this supposed deficiency? I've not heard anything in the examples you mentioned that Reason can't compete with, but admittedly - I don't use any of those other products on a regular basis.

I often wonder if VST users are in their own little walled garden world as well. Granted, this is not meant as a slight against your preference of tools, rather - I just haven't heard anything that seemed as groundbreaking as everyone thinks.

[bmrzycki]

Ableton's racks plus track view is seriously cramped and nothing like Reason's rack as a whole. I think that's by design, as well, Ableton is not supposed to sprawl, except maybe in session clips. Routing kinda gets tedious in Ableton, not very inspiring, although compact. All IMO.

Yep, pretty much exactly how I feel about Live. I also had a couple bad experiences with their "talk to us when we decide you've authorized too often" moments. A decent tool, just didn't gel with me.

[braj]

Of course VST users are also in their own little world, but Reason exists as a world within that world via Rewire, many have experience using Reason stand alone and rewired, it is way too compelling a concept and has been around for so long it is hard not to have some experience with it. And of course many primary Reason users arent uninformed about the wide world of vst and just choose to live in their happy littpe villages.

[headquest]

Is the engine an interesting front-end or is it all about the libraries?

In terms of the point I was making, it's about the libraries. Kontakt is the industry standard and having their player in the Reason rack would open it up to a big chunk of the world's leading sample libraries for orchestral stuff, and so on. It's a very big deal. And I bet loads of Reason users would be hyper excited if they had the chance to use this stuff. We're talking very serious sample libraries the likes of which Reason has never had

[headquest]

I'm curious - can you point to actual audio examples of this supposed deficiency? I've not heard anything in the examples you mentioned that Reason can't compete with, but admittedly - I don't use any of those other products on a regular basis.

I often wonder if VST users are in their own little walled garden world as well. Granted, this is not meant as a slight against your preference of tools, rather - I just haven't heard anything that seemed as groundbreaking as everyone thinks.

I'll assume this is a serious question and answer as best I can without being too long... But the fact Propellerhead are introducing their Rack Extensions rather speaks for itself in terms of what they and/or their users consider to be obvious deficiencies in the present product

In terms of quality, I was not merely considering the audio output of VST effects, but also their ease of use, the functions and workflow they offer, and the features they include which enable audio tasks that are impossible in Reason (or which require very time consuming workarounds).

To keep it as brief as possible let's focus on a single application - the EQ effect - and consider the three general points I mentioned. The following points are true of most modern VST EQ effects, and show just how superior they are to Reason's M-Class EQ in each area.

If you want to try out some of the better EQ plugins in the VST format, here's three you should definitely have on your short-list:

Fabfilter Pro-Q: http://www.fabfilter.com/products/pro-q.php
Waves H-EQ: http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=11818
DMG Audio EQuality: http://dmgaudio.com/products_equality.php

1) Ease of Use.

At the most simple level, the first thing you will notice is that these EQ effects all have larger interfaces with clear and accurate visual feedback. Each EQ band is shown in a different colour. And in each case the EQ nodes can be physically dragged with the mouse if you would prefer that to using the traditional knobs. EQ filter types are freely selectable and precise information is given. You will also see that most of these effects now include spectrum analysis built into the EQ interface (Reason doesn't offer spectral analysis at all, let alone within the EQ interface!) and a nice feature of the Waves one is that there is a piano keyboard display for quickly zoning in on particular notes (for example if you know that one note on a piano you recorded hadn't been regulated properly by the tuner).

In terms of "Ease of Use" alone you can hopefully already get an idea what I mean about the superior "quality" of these effects when compared with the Reason M-Class EQ. But let's move on:

2. Features.

I've already mentioned several important features relating to ease of use and workflow, but what about the features that relate to the effect processing itself?
Well, these VST EQ effects all offer a far wider selection of Bands. They have a bigger range of fully selectable filter types too. They can provide separate processing for left and right channels, and mid-side processing. They can all operate in Linear Phase mode, and are capable of a range of vintage, modern or transparent processing.

Most important one in my opinion though is that these EQ effects all have notch filters - something the M-Class EQ lacks. Notching is an essential feature for zoning in and removing problem frequencies, e.g. for hum/noise reduction, and is a key essential feature of a professional-grade EQ effect.

Beyond the three I mentioned there are many VST effects that have shelving and bell curves specifically modelled on particular analogue equipment - not just marketing blah-blah, but a feature that a recording engineer working with an artist looking for a retro sound would obviously find desirable.

3. Audio Quality

The improved audio quality of these EQ plugins is obviously in part because of their DSP, but probably results mostly from their superior feature sets. As somebody who has used Reason for many years I would be quick to confess that I find it difficult to analyse and notch our problem frequencies using the tools they offer, for example. To take another example, suppose I want a vintage EQ sound for one track, but a transparent one on the next... in Reason this isn't going to happen.

You ask for specific audio examples, so (and I don't mean to be facetious here) I'll give you a huge number: for the quality of Reason effects check out the songs on the Propellerhead site, and the Propellerhead User Groups on Soundcloud. To hear audio demos of the Waves effects, just switch on the radio. Every commercial track in the last decade and a half is smothered in them. Including the ones that started life in Reason...

This last point is a serious question for you: why do commercial artists who use Reason all get their final mixes done in Pro Tools using Waves/etc effects? Read any of their interviews and they will admit it's because the software environment is preferred by engineers for the workflow and tool set it offers, and because the finished result sounds better.

None of this is a criticism of Reason in it's own right: within it's price point it is an awesome programme, and I am comparing it here with far more expensive professional tools. For me the question then becomes - how much is my music worth? And how much can I afford right now?

Also it's worth noting that the three developers I linked to, along with PSP Audioware, Voxengo, Wave Arts and many more, usually offer bundles of their plugs, covering all bases, all available with one account in one store from one vendor, with common interface solutions and presets management, etc. In most cases they don't use dongles now (because the big players are gradually moving away from dongle protection) and we're talking about highly stable professional effects used daily in studios worldwide without crashes, etc. Just to correct that absurd myth

I hope this answers the question. Of course I have limited the discussion to EQ, but this applies to any other effect you mention. Want a reverb? I bet a lot of Reason users would like to get their hands on the recent Lexicon bundles and Altiverb. How about delay? Let's consider Waves Super Tap, PSP 608 MultiDelay, etc. Mastering effects? Well how about Ozone, TrackS, etc. Spacial Effects? Waves S1, Wave Arts panorama, etc.... and so it goes.

[Dogboy73]

All this waffle is getting a little tedious now Headquest let me lay it down for you - RE is great news for Reason users. If you are a Reason user & you don't like RE then you don't have to buy any. I don't even think the subject warrants this amount of discussion any more to be frank. End of story.

[braj]

[headquest]

All this waffle is getting a little tedious now Headquest let me lay it down for you - RE is great news for Reason users. If you are a Reason user & you don't like RE then you don't have to buy any. I don't even think the subject warrants this amount of discussion any more to be frank. End of story.

No idea what your point is here

I agree entirely that Re is good news for Reason users. Did you even read my post?

I'm happy to ignore any question you ask me if you want me to, but I was actually answering a specific (and so far as I can tell genuine) question from EnochLight.

This is a forum where people do chat about such such... quite honestly, I don't understand the rudeness or pointlessness of your post at all